Roland FR1X - the MIDI Expression Pedal rabbit hole

[Tafaner]

Oh dear. I fear I am about to fall down a rather deep rabbit hole. ROLAND FR1XB and MIDI.

Why go there ? As a newcomer to accordion, I allowed myself to start learning the Roland with the bellows closed and parameter "BLC" (bellows curve) set to 2 (medium). The sound that comes out is pretty lifeless, but is handy for learning.

Now I have got to the stage of activating the bellows, like many others before me, I am horrified at the transition ! All that squeezing and stretching for an instrument that doesn't really use air at all (but insists on leaking a bit, even in the most closed valve position) and doesn't sound as good as 'the real thing', even when you work it hard!

So like many before me, I am fantasizing closing the bellows for good and using some sort of expression pedal, or even a "wearable" control (such as the TEC BBC2, which has 4 separate MIDI controls: breath, bite, head lean and head tilt - another rabbit hole!).

Why not just use a VOLUME CONTROL ? That would be easiest for me because I have one with my acoustic guitar rig, but of course that would only control VOLUME, whereas the MIDI EXPRESSION control available to the Roland family genuinely changes the TONE as well (presumably they took samples from real accordions at different volumes). So to sound reasonable, I figure I need a MIDI EXPRESSION Control.

This is where it becomes a rabbit hole! Seemingly, the FR1X in normal out-of-the-box mode, plays its sounds locally and outputs MIDI in case you want it (via both the MIDI and the USB 'computer' ports). In this mode, it seemingly ignores all MIDI inputs ?

To process INPUTS (only possible via the 'Computer' port) you seemingly have to switch parameter "ES9" (external sequencer) to *YES*. The accordion then falls silent, and just outputs its midi stream - BUT it does also then respond to MIDI inputs. The complete the loop, you need your external device to implement MIDI THRU, so the accordion MIDI output stream loops back and magically plays the accordion. BUT in this mode, the accordion can also receive external MIDI instructions - notably EXPRESSION control.

OK, none of this is new. Indeed, others such as KEYMN have even gone to the next stage of using the CME WIDI UHOST to implement the "thru" and also transport the remote MIDI over Bluetooth, as in this post (video sadly disappeared!). There's also a YouTube video of someone going even further using a TILTING IPHONE as an expression pedal! I'm not an Apple fan, so I thoroughly approve of standing on an iPhone!

However, the reason for my post is I don't know if every aspect of this has been mapped and documented somewhere? By exporting and looping back your MIDI stream, it's possible that some local controls might stop working because their function wasn't considered meaningful or worth implementing off-board. Does everything work? I have checked voices, switching octaves etc, and it SEEMS OK - but are we sure ?

The other hassle is that the EXPRESSION control seemingly needs to be on different CHANNELS for different parts of the instrument, ie #1 Accordion Treble, #2 Accordion Bass, #3 Chords, #4 Orchestra Treble. I think I have seen these documented somewhere in this forum, but I was also able to check them by simply connecting to a PC.

POCKET MIDI (A PC utility, free from the MS Store and available for Mac as well, I think) turns out to be a very handy way of testing and visualizing what's happening. As you see in the pic, I opened windows for MIDI Stream IN and Out, and also for sending Notes (piano KB) Program Changes and Control Changes. The MIDI settings window also shows the THRU setting in action. I was quickly able to verify that the accordion indeed responds to CC#11 Expression (but ignores CC#7 Volume) BUT that it has to be on the correct channel (#1, #2, #3... for the part of the accordion you want to control. Changing patches via Program Numbers also seems to work - but I didn't get as far as exploring USER SETS etc.

So what have I missed out or got wrong ?
Has anyone got a good working solution that implements an expression pedal across the whole instrument ?
And is there an alternative to dialling-up "ES9" on the accordion (parameter #43!) every time you power up the accordion ?!
Should I instead just learn to play the accordion "properly"?

 

[Ventura]

16 midi channels, 4 are pretty active on V-Acccordions,
midi channels are independent of one another for notes
and CC data/changes and such so yeah enabling CC11
for each channel in use seems to be necessary

i don't know of any global way to blast only CC11
without also blasting everything else to everywhere

if your roland is out of warranty anyway, maybe you can
hardwire your TecBBC thingie in place of the bellows sensor..
should be pretty easy to find and patch into the circuit board,
or maybe an old EWI or Yamaha midi wind instrument sensor

good luck

 

[Tafaner]

Interesting thought re the Tec BBC2! I don't actually own one, and I'm not keen on wearing something like that (especially live!) but it's interesting that MIDI controllers of that kind do exist - and most of them would be more natural to a non-accordionist than squeezing bellows! Roland could presumably have externalized the pressure sensor in exactly the way you theorize - but their market was presumably existing accordionists (most of whom seem disappointed with the outcome anyway!).

If I had a personal choice of MIDI sensor it would probably be something worn as a replacement shoe or shoe attachment that senses pressure on the sole, so you can play standing up, and even walk around a bit - but move your weight forward to swell. You wouldn't need wireless then, either. Just electrically conductive trousers

As a more primitive (steampunk) solution, I did see someone theorize tapping into the bellows compartment with a flexible pipe and using something like a foot pump to drive the bellows sensor! A tube in the mouth probably wouldn't do it, and would fill the bellows with moisture (like bagpipes, before Goretex). But in any case, the FR1X appears to leak air even from new, and even with the air valve fully closed. So static air pressure control looks impossible.

 

[KeysFla]

Yes it can be done on the FR1x. I have had past videos on this.
In order to receive cc11, expression. Conditions must be met which are for the FR4x. And I believe the FR8x.
Same can be done on FR1x as shown in the you tube video. One of the big breakthroughs, the last few years is when WIDI added the soft-thru switch parameter.
The terminology is different on FR1x…but same results.
- [x] Not transmitted when “Real Time RX-TX” part parameters is “Off”.
- [x] Not transmitted when the “PC” parameter of the “Global Setting” group is “Off”
- [x] Not transmitted when the “PC” parameter in the part “MIDI TX” group is “Off”.

Here I am controlling expression and switching the orchestration. I am using widi uhost taped on the accordion (see photo). Sorry for the poor contrast…using an a “Line 6 FBV Express MkII 4-button Foot Controller”.


The Airturn bt500s-6 will also work with expression pedal plugged in and a widi uhost on accordion (2nd picture).

 

[Tafaner]

Yes it can be done on the FR1x. I have had past videos on this but no longer have them.
In order to receive cc11, expression. Conditions must be met which are for the FR4x. And I believe the FR8x.
Same can be done on FR1x as shown in the you tube video. One of the big breakthroughs, the last few years is when WIDI added the soft-thru switch parameter.
The terminology is different on FR1x…but same results.
- [x] Not transmitted when “Real Time RX-TX” part parameters is “Off”.
- [x] Not transmitted when the “PC” parameter of the “Global Setting” group is “Off”
- [x] Not transmitted when the “PC” parameter in the part “MIDI TX” group is “Off”.

Here I am controlling expression and switching the orchestration. I am using widi uhost taped on the accordion (see photo). Sorry for the poor contrast…

That's very reassuring. I guess I'd better get myself a WIDI UHOST and give it a try. I do harbour suspicions about the wisdom of the MIDI LOOP idea (that some feature of the instrument may not work) but it's worth a try, whether I eventually go this way or not. Many thanks for posting!

 

[KeysFla]

That's very reassuring. I guess I'd better get myself a WIDI UHOST and give it a try. I do harbour suspicions about the wisdom of the MIDI LOOP idea (that some feature of the instrument may not work) but it's worth a try, whether I eventually go this way or not. Many thanks for posting!

I have tested this and so far have not seen problems. If you have an iPad, you can create this midi thru with the DAW Cubasis App. Which I tested first. Then with the usb port on the bottom you can receive the midi message, CC11, channel 4. I believe the FR1x usb must be set to Generic in the settings. Give me a shout if you need help. I can also create a video on step by step if you wish.
This picture shows the Line 6 pedal and widi uhost. Using a shure power supply to make this pedal complete wireless. Then pair widi Uhost to the WidiUhost on accordion.

 

[Tafaner]

I have tested this and so far have not seen problems. If you have an iPad, you can create this midi thru with the DAW Cubasis App. Which I tested first. Then with the usb port on the bottom you can receive the midi message, CC11, channel 4. I believe the FR1x usb must be set to Generic in the settings. Give me a shout if you need help. I can also create a video on step by step if you wish.
Have you seen my other posting using the iPhone as expression? There is many ways to do this.

Thanks again. That's channel 4 for Orchestral I think, channel 1 for Accordion treble (at least on the FR1x). In my tests (with a PC) I indeed used the 'Generic' driver, as you say. And YES - I did see what I assume is your Iphone demo on Youtube, but didn't know you were here !

 

[KeysFla]

Thanks again. That's channel 4 for Orchestral I think, channel 1 for Accordion treble (at least on the FR1x). In my tests (with a PC) I indeed used the 'Generic' driver, as you say. And YES - I did see what I assume is your Iphone demo on Youtube, but didn't know you were here !

With iPhone expression pedal idea and Widi uhost on accordion, you might be able to pull this off?

 

[Tafaner]

At risk of talking to myself here, but as an alternative to MIDI solutions (given I only want the 'bellows function') I was wondering what the Roland BELLOWS PRESSURE SENSOR is like physically. How feasible might it be to "spoof" its output from some other source.

I can't find anything explicit about it online - BUT there's a lovely video of someone repairing an FR-7, and from a video grab (see pics) you can read the part number off the circuit board! Roland claim that later models have "improved" their sensor, but my guess is that it's mainly the processing that's improved, and that the pressures involved, voltages and circuitry are probably similar. And for the FR-7, the sensor chip is the MPXV7007DP

As you can see from the pics, it's an 8-pin device soldered on to the main digital board. It's actually a DUAL device with one port unused (covered in a plastic cap). The only active pins and GND, +5v supply and OUTPUT. According to the datasheet, the output normally floats at 2.5v but can be 'squeezed' up to to 4.5v and 'sucked' down to 0.5v. The device (or maybe even just the output pin?) looks de-solderable, potentially allowing a "spoof" voltage to take its place ?

The other interesting thing is that the pressure range is a mere +- 7 KPA, or roughly 7% of 1 atmosphere. The compressed air is ported to the chip via a simple plastic pipe that looks just like polythene 4/6mm "fishtank" piping. So another break-in possibility is just to connect a replacement pipe from outside, possibly even entering via the air valve (if this is removable, meaning no permanent mods to the accordion would be needed)

This may be somewhat different for the FR1X, I suppose, so when curiosity gets the better of me, I will crowbar it open and have a look

 

[Ventura]

yes, after the fr7/fr3 they developed a diatonic model, and
that research gave them the ability to measure push and pull
separately and process that separately and apply that with
a separate algorithm

so the x models have essentially 2 sensors and 2 logic paths
and some separate control hooks
(so they can be balanced for ex.)

 

[KeysFla]

At risk of talking to myself here, but as an alternative to MIDI solutions (given I only want the 'bellows function') I was wondering what the Roland BELLOWS PRESSURE SENSOR is like physically. How feasible might it be to "spoof" its output from some other source.

I can't find anything explicit about it online - BUT there's a lovely video of someone repairing an FR-7, and from a video grab (see pics) you can read the part number off the circuit board! Roland claim that later models have "improved" their sensor, but my guess is that it's mainly the processing that's improved, and that the pressures involved, voltages and circuitry are probably similar. And for the FR-7, the sensor chip is the MPXV7007DP

As you can see from the pics, it's an 8-pin device soldered on to the main digital board. It's actually a DUAL device with one port unused (covered in a plastic cap). The only active pins and GND, +5v supply and OUTPUT. According to the datasheet, the output normally floats at 2.5v but can be 'squeezed' up to to 4.5v and 'sucked' down to 0.5v. The device (or maybe even just the output pin?) looks de-solderable, potentially allowing a "spoof" voltage to take its place ?

The other interesting thing is that the pressure range is a mere +- 7 KPA, or roughly 7% of 1 atmosphere. The compressed air is ported to the chip via a simple plastic pipe that looks just like polythene 4/6mm "fishtank" piping. So another break-in possibility is just to connect a replacement pipe from outside, possibly even entering via the air valve (if this is removable, meaning no permanent mods to the accordion would be needed)

This may be somewhat different for the FR1X, I suppose, so when curiosity gets the better of me, I will crowbar it open and have a look

I am getting out of this digital stuff…working on my guitar skills. But memorizing the notes on a fret board is my hardest challenge to this day…

 

[Tafaner]

I am getting out of this digital stuff…working on my guitar skills. But memorizing the notes on a fret board is my hardest challenge to this day…

Best of luck! I'm actually going in the other direction, having played guitar all my life (7-string for the last 10 years) and now getting a bit bored with it. Oddly enough, I've never tried memorizing the notes on the fret board! I just know certain anchor points, then do the rest 'relatively'. Here's a video (if the linking works) of me playing a fragment on 7-string

 

[KeysFla]

Best of luck! I'm actually going in the other direction, having played guitar all my life (7-string for the last 10 years) and now getting a bit bored with it. Oddly enough, I've never tried memorizing the notes on the fret board! I just know certain anchor points, then do the rest 'relatively'. Here's a video (if the linking works) of me playing a fragment on 7-string

So many ways to learn, thanks for the video…

 

[Tafaner]

yes, after the fr7/fr3 they developed a diatonic model, and
that research gave them the ability to measure push and pull
separately and process that separately and apply that with
a separate algorithm

so the x models have essentially 2 sensors and 2 logic paths
and some separate control hooks
(so they can be balanced for ex.)

What you say makes complete sense - but odd to relate, I just cracked open my FR1XB and found exactly the same pressure-sensing chip as in the FR-7, the MPXV7007(DP). As with the FR-7, it's a DUAL PORT version with just one port in use (see pics). The chip is designed to handle both "suck" and "blow" (atmospheric pressure +/- 7%) so it's an odd choice to only use it one-way only ?

I only opened the "top" (keyboard face) of the instrument, so it's possible there's a 2nd circuit board round the other side - and that one side handles "blow" while the other does "suck" (each having it's own 1-way valve). Not clear to me yet! I'm personally only interested in the "blow"

What I'm fantasizing is to pull the bellows plastic tube off the sensor and replace it with one of my own that runs through an opening in the case to an external "pump"; that might be just a rubber ball (like a doctor's blood pressure pump) or perhaps a pressure bag that fits under the arm - such as Uilleann pipe players use. Pull your arm inwards to operate. The tube is apparently 2/4mm silicone.

 

[KeysFla]

What you say makes complete sense - but odd to relate, I just cracked open my FR1XB and found exactly the same pressure-sensing chip as in the FR-7, the MPXV7007(DP). As with the FR-7, it's a DUAL PORT version with just one port in use (see pics). The chip is designed to handle both "suck" and "blow" (atmospheric pressure +/- 7%) so it's an odd choice to only use it one-way only ?

I only opened the "top" (keyboard face) of the instrument, so it's possible there's a 2nd circuit board round the other side - and that one side handles "blow" while the other does "suck" (each having it's own 1-way valve). Not clear to me yet! I'm personally only interested in the "blow"

What I'm fantasizing is to pull the bellows plastic tube off the sensor and replace it with one of my own that runs through an opening in the case to an external "pump"; that might be just a rubber ball (like a doctor's blood pressure pump) or perhaps a pressure bag that fits under the arm - such as Uilleann pipe players use. Pull your arm inwards to operate. The tube is apparently 2/4mm silicone.

Midi breath controller some use on keyboards to express different sounds like sax. To make them more human sounding. Same type of concept.
But control orchestrations, pitch bend, modulation with an expression pedal in a VAccordion. The FR1x if I remember, only accepts expression cc11…again you need to use the midi softthru switch.