Side by side comparison of machine, tipo a mano, and a mano reeds?

[lordzedd]

I did a search for just such a comparison on YouTube and was shocked to not find one. I feel like a manufacturer or large dealer would have the capability to get multiple copies of the same box with different reed qualities and play them back to back with the same expert player under the same circumstances to allow comparisons of the different reed options. Seems like it would be a great way to sell reed upgrades.

 

[Ben-jammin]

That would be interesting to see and hear. And I wonder how perceivable the difference would be. I imagine the difference is much more noticeable to the player.

 

[JerryPH]

From what some experts here tell us, there is not much sonic difference between the two and I bet that without either very high end mics and recording techniques, we would not be able to tell on a YouTube video, plus things like responsiveness and voicing are impossible to show. Doing that would be a prime way for any dealer to shoot themselves in the foot... lol

 

[debra]

I agree with Jerry: the difference in sound may be just about noticeable when you hear the accordions side by side (and even just recording them may already hide the differences). An example of how unnoticeable the differences can be is the construction of the old Hohner Morino IV M, which used to have Hohner tipo-a-mano reeds on the treble side and Hohner machine reeds on the bass side. I don't know any player who ever noticed the bass side had inferior reeds. (Later Morino IV M accordions had Bugari reeds. I'm not sure whether they were also still different on the bass side.)
Other than sound differences the biggest difference between machine reeds and tipo-a-mano or a-mano is the air consumption. A machine reed has slightly greater tolerance: the reed is not as tight a fit on the reed plate and the extra room on each side of the reed tongue wastes a bit of air. On a positive side, that extra room also means the accordion is more likely to still play without problems in cold temperatures whereas better reeds will stop working (as the steel shrinks less than the reed plate when it gets cold).

 

[Ben-jammin]

I think the difference would be most noticeable if the performer is playing something that really benefits from quick responding reeds. Quietly playing fast and staccato, in my modest experience this is where inferior reeds let you down the most. But really good machine made reeds can still have pretty impressive performance.

 

[debra]

I think the difference would be most noticeable if the performer is playing something that really benefits from quick responding reeds. Quietly playing fast and staccato, in my modest experience this is where inferior reeds let you down the most. But really good machine made reeds can still have pretty impressive performance.

That is very true. Fast response is what I like so much in my (Russian, I know...) bayan. These reeds, even the lowest notes in the L register are clearly responding more quickly than any Italian reeds I have seen and heard. In the "mid range" however, all reeds can be very responsive, when the voicing has been adjusted correctly.

 

[Ric46]

I did a search for just such a comparison on YouTube and was shocked to not find one. I feel like a manufacturer or large dealer would have the capability to get multiple copies of the same box with different reed qualities and play them back to back with the same expert player under the same circumstances to allow comparisons of the different reed options. Seems like it would be a great way to sell reed upgrades.

Today visiting Stocco I discovered there is a type they call "super a mano" but I don't know what does it mean, sorry!

 

[NickC]

From what some experts here tell us, there is not much sonic difference between the two…

I wonder if this would be like a violinist playing with a $10k bow or a $1k bow. The player could feel the difference in the response, but the audience might not hear the difference in the sound?

It would be cool to play the same instrument and just replace the reed blocks with handmade reeds, because I would imagine that even 2 of the same model will have differences that would affect the experiment.

 

[Ffingers]

"...but the audience might not hear the difference in the sound?"

After attending a few highly amplified rock music (?) concerts, many people would not have enough hearing left to distinguish anything.

 

[Tom]

"...but the audience might not hear the difference in the sound?"

After attending a few highly amplified rock music (?) concerts, many people would not have enough hearing left to distinguish anything.

I seriously wonder whether Jimi Hendrix used those plain $4 strings or those wrapped brass $20 ones, or how about that upside down $300 Strat anyway? He probably would have sounded better with a Gretsch. Just saying. Anyway, he hardly ever played a "real" guitar. And those reel to reel effects? I don't know, pretty electronic.

 

[Ben-jammin]

I seriously wonder whether Jimi Hendrix used those plain $4 strings or those wrapped brass $20 ones, or how about that upside down $300 Strat anyway? He probably would have sounded better with a Gretsch. Just saying. Anyway, he hardly ever played a "real" guitar. And those reel to reel effects? I don't know, pretty electronic.

Kind of getting off topic here, and I’m failing to the relevance. But Jimi chose the strat because it worked best for his technique (inspite of them being considered uncool at the time.) he could have any guitar he wanted and liked Gretsch but preferred the versatility of the strat.

Jimi used fender 150 nickel strings. Nothing special but good strings.

Not sure what your comment about a “real” guitar implies. I’m guessing acoustic guitar?

 

[lordzedd]

Part of my motivation for seeking out this information is the efficiency of air use that Paul mentioned. In a small accordion (see my other thread), where bellows volume is minimal, efficiency would seem to be more important. Even in a tremolo register where the benefits of TAM would not normally be warranted, the efficiency could be helpful.

 

[lordzedd]

Delicia, for instance, offers even their cheapest accordion the Sonorex 60/Sonorex 1237 with 4 different reed quality options: http://www.mygtukinis.lt/en/manufac...hparam=&mnid=er0de99d208fe32517be8bc86868b877

 

[Ben-jammin]

I’m sure there is a way to effectively and objectively measure reed response speed and efficiency. The problem for this to be helpful, everyone would have to do it the same way for results to be comparable.

 

[lordzedd]

What we need are some competing standards for people to argue over!

Jokes aside, I am looking forward to the "How do reeds work?" event coming up. There will be an acoustic physicist and the president of Voci Armoniche as speakers. It should be a good primer for further learning.

 

[NickC]

It seems that, from the replies in this thread, the test would be to play the same instrument with different reed options and see if there is a difference in the feel of each (??)

 

[Ben-jammin]

I think that would be most scientific approach. Ideally it would be a blind study, where the player wouldn’t know which set was what until after. But it should be noted that the results are specific to those particular sets of reeds.

 

[Dingo40]

I remember a documentary wherein double blind panelists were required to identify a Stradivarius being played (one at a time) among several more recent instruments ( including a modern one) , behind a curtain by the same violinist.
As I remember it, the instrument identified as the Stradivarius was the newest one ?
See here:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[Ffingers]

I remember a documentary wherein double blind panelists were required to identify a Stradivarius being played (one at a time) among several more recent instruments ( including a modern one) , behind a curtain by the same violinist.
As I remember it, the instrument identified as the Stradivarius was the newest one ?
See here:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

All-along-same-thing Art critics, wine buffs, fashionistas, galloping gourmets and others of a similar tendency to primitive 'group influence'.
People are weird.

 

[Waldo]

Perhaps a custom configured accordion with side by side machine, TAM and AM reeds where throwing a register switch would redirect the air thru one or the other while still playing the same pitch. I'm thinking this would be relatively easy to do with just one reed block so modified. A pitch could be selected and the various reed types could be selected without stopping the air flow, reveling any tonal differences. Response differences would also be evident. JimD?

I am also interested in clarinets. I took a shine to the early 20th century metal examples from a number of long gone manufacturers. The "experts" shunned such instruments as being "tinny", "empty" and other derisive comparisons. Some guy (link lost in computer crash) did a blind comparison test, playing 2 quality metal instruments (a Silva-Bet by Cundy-Bettoney Co. and a Silver King by H.N. White), and 2 of the best wood instruments (Buffet and Selmer). The site recorded the selections of listeners to determine which were the wood models. The responses were all over the place with the metal clarinets gaining a slight edge. So much for the opinion of the "experts". It's all in the (enter appropriate appendage here) of the beholder.
And, yes, people are weird. (Me included, and proud of it!)