Sounds like the real thing!?

[debra]

A Roland FR-4x comes from the factory with many“sets” of accordion “reeds,” ...While it is true that people can agree or disagree about what sounds good, or authentic, I’m of the opinion that pleasing yourself is one thing and pleasing an audience of non-accordionists is another. As wondeful as my 4x sounds, it’s still in a plastic body and doesn’t say, “I’m an accordion” to me. But I marvel at its light weight and its versatility.

I do find the FR-4x tempting (the 4xb in my case) for what it can do. But I also find it too expensive for what it is. When I compare the prices of the Roland V-accordions to those of really nice digital pianos I cannot help but think the V-accordions are overpriced. Whereas for acoustic accordions I can clearly understand the price considering the materials and labor that goes into making them. Comparing that to the plastic body with electronics... I cannot justify paying the price that Roland has undoubtedly set by considering what acoustic accordions cost and what they can get customers to pay for a V-accordion, and not by considering what it costs to make a V-accordion. I gladly paid around 2.000 for my excellent digital (stage) piano and would also gladly pay 2.000 for something like the FR4xb. But Roland has set the price way higher than that...

 

[losthobos]

And the plastic is shoddy at best on the button version.... Odd as I've dabbled with both and the piano keyed version felt less like a toy by a long shot.... If i was gonna go digital I'd go musictech with a ferrofish hammond simulator module for sounds... ?

 

[JIM D.]

Well you must consider that the 4x does not require an expander & the necessary spaghetti wiring to perform electronically.
The 4x also has empty sets that can be tweaked to your liking.
There are many custom sets such as Dick Noels sets that can be installed with a flash drive.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I do find the FR-4x tempting (the 4xb in my case) for what it can do. But I also find it too expensive for what it is. When I compare the prices of the Roland V-accordions to those of really nice digital pianos I cannot help but think the V-accordions are overpriced. Whereas for acoustic accordions I can clearly understand the price considering the materials and labor that goes into making them. Comparing that to the plastic body with electronics... I cannot justify paying the price that Roland has undoubtedly set by considering what acoustic accordions cost and what they can get customers to pay for a V-accordion, and not by considering what it costs to make a V-accordion. I gladly paid around 2.000 for my excellent digital (stage) piano and would also gladly pay 2.000 for something like the FR4xb. But Roland has set the price way higher than that...

Have you seen the installed price of midi in an acoustic accordion lately? That’s also much higher than it should be. I don’t know why the high-price-electronic demons tend to gang up on accordions but they do.

Roland V-accordions, as I understand it, were never intended to bring lots of money to the company. They were produced in the first place because the late owner of Roland was an accordion fan all of his life. In practice, they represent a very tiny fraction of Roland’s total sales. Could that account for the high prices? Again, I can't explain.

I might be criticized by fellow Roland owners, but given that the instruments didn't produce large profits and that Roland is under new management, and that some of their manufacturing and technical support facilities associated with the V-accordions have closed, I wouldn't be surprised if Roland never announces a new V-accordion model.

On the other hand, a relatively new Italian company, Proxima, may be in a position to surprise the digital accordion market with something very new, and configurable way beyond what Roland has achieved, in the not-too-distant future. As I understand it, that new accordion will be sample-based.

Meantime, my FR-4x does satisfy some needs of mine in a way that an acoustic accordion can't, so I'm not sorry I bought it.

 

[debra]

Have you seen the installed price of midi in an acoustic accordion lately? That’s also much higher than it should be. I don’t know why the high-price-electronic demons tend to gang up on accordions but they do.

Roland V-accordions, as I understand it, were never intended to bring lots of money to the company. They were produced in the first place because the late owner ...

I have not seen the prices of midi in an accordion, but I have seen such midi installation, and it is a very labor-intensive process to do it right. So I'm not surprised it's expensive.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Interesting that Paul's dislike of the LH bass is supported by the FR* players who opt for (say) a string bass from the non-accordion options - the LH options may well be the weakest part.
Perhaps we could also vote on who cares if they can tell the difference.
I posted the presentation video because it is just that. I guess I'm a bit disappointed nobody seems interested in what the box can do.
Perhaps we could also vote to close other subjects where less than half of us can do something? Or did I miss some humour there?
I don't think it is unique to accordion enthusiasts but we do seem to focus on the things our instruments do not do - hence accordion acquisition syndrome.
Tastes and colours....

I once had a SEM Ciao reedless. When it booted up, it was with accordion treble, string bass and guitar chords. Of course that could be changed, but somebody at the factory thought it would be popular. Now, I have an acoustic accordion with Master midi in it and one of the first things I configured in it was that sound combination. Why? Because it was in demand and because the guys I was playing with needed it.

I also have a Roland FR-4x. While I agree that some -- not all -- of the LH accordion sounds are muddy, I will tell you that each of the sixty-seven different accordions built into my Roland (and thirty-three that I can build myself) consists of enough virtual reeds to make up fourteen treble registers and seven bass-chord registers. If I can't find one of the sixty-seven accordions supplied by the factory that has all seven bass registers that sound good to me, I listen for the one set that comes close. I then take that set, copy into an empty area, and then, using the free editor for the accordion that's available as a download on Roland's site I can tweak each virtual reed in each of the seven bass areas for octave, detune, volume, what-have-you, until I get what I want. When I'm finished, I save it.

And yes, I can also go with the string bass-guitar chord combination as well on the same Roland V-accordion (Roland calls them orchestral sounds and provides almost two hundred of them as the instrument comes out of the factory as well as a whole bunch of organ sounds that can be configured with virtual drawbars) when that's necessary.

No, my Roland can't match my acoustic exactly, but it can come as close, or be as fanciful as I can make it. Not perfect, but a good start. And, if the latest accordion from Proxima becomes a reality, it will be even closer to perfection than any Roland. Not that I'm giving up my acoustic any time soon, mind you.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

And the plastic is shoddy at best on the button version.... Odd as I've dabbled with both and the piano keyed version felt less like a toy by a long shot.... If i was gonna go digital I'd go musictech with a ferrofish hammond simulator module for sounds... ?

Yes, I have to agree with some of what you said. Actually, although I've never experienced it, people have constantly warned me to make sure that any cable I have going into the accordion must have some kind of strain relief. That's not because the case itself would break if a cable is yanked, but the jack it goes into and its connection to the printed-circuit board may break. I've heard of other problems like that, but haven't experienced them. My one problem with a plastic case is that it resonates differently from wood and tends to give Roland V-accordions a somewhat "electronic" sound. On the other hand, carbon fiber, while expensive now, may turn out to be the case material of the future because it can be made so that it doesn't resonate at all.

As far as organ sounds are concerned, Roland V-accordions come with a bunch of them. Some of them are quite good, some can be configured with virtual drawbars, and all can be edited to some extent. Musictech, while worthy, is old technology. If it ever materializes, watch for what comes out of Proxima. It just might blow Roland, Master, Musictech and all of the others away.

 

[John M]

. . . . My one problem with a plastic case is that it resonates differently from wood and tends to give Roland V-accordions a somewhat "electronic" sound. . . . .

Personally, I don't like any of the sound that comes out of the stock FR-8X. The volume is low, there isn't a "presence" to the sound. They can't put large enough speakers/ amplification in the accordion. Using the L/Mono output to an amplifier/speaker does wonders. Take it to a Bose L1 Compact and you wouldn't believe it is the same accordion. This now is more like "Sounds Like The Real Thing!"

John M.

 

[saundersbp]

Inviting controversy I'll say my piece - and like a previous poster I've also seen this discussion played out ad nausea on other forums for other instruments. People have their points of view and defend them. I also play the drums and the organ and have played many electronic versions of both; I've also used Roland accordions.

Thinking about all these electronic synthesisers, and not withstanding my view that the electronic accordion is a good decade behind the sound modules and interface of the best of other more commercially viable and bigger market instruments, there are two fundamental problems I've found with all synthesised sound.

For the listener: The basic technology of the loud speaker is a limiting factor. It doesn't move air with the polyphonic complexity that scores of individual accordion reeds, organ pipes or drum skins. These elements are all their own individual loud speakers and have a complex interplay with each other and the acoustic space they are played in. Somehow, and I can't apply science, electronic instruments can sound good, but somehow the ear tires of them after a bit despite all the perceived options, and they can struggle to touch the soul or convey profound musical meaning. For me, even in the hands of a great artist, they sound two dimensional too often.

For the performer: The interaction between human emotion, muscle and sinew of the performer with the wood, metal and whatever else the instrument is made of produces a complex dialogue between performer and instrument. You feel the instrument talking to you as you play and you respond and it forms a reflexive dialogue where you can really make music, which at its essence is the language of emotion. I'd go as far as to say a transcendental conversation as you feel every vibration physically and aurally as you and truly interact with the instrument as equals.

I was really into electronics and synthesizers when I was a teenager. You could do everything with infinite variety and novelty. What was harder was making music, really making music where the earth moves, or at least wobbles for a moment.

 

[losthobos]

Inviting controversy I'll say my piece - and like a previous poster I've also seen this discussion played out ad nausea on other forums for other instruments. People have their points of view and defend them. I also play the drums and the organ and have played many electronic versions of both; I've also used Roland accordions.

Thinking about all these electronic synthesisers, and not withstanding my view that the electronic accordion is a good decade behind the sound modules and interface of the best of other more commercially viable and bigger market instruments, there are two fundamental problems I've found with all synthesised sound.

For the listener: The basic technology of the loud speaker is a limiting factor. It doesn't move air with the polyphonic complexity that scores of individual accordion reeds, organ pipes or drum skins. These elements are all their own individual loud speakers and have a complex interplay with each other and the acoustic space they are played in. Somehow, and I can't apply science, electronic instruments can sound good, but somehow the ear tires of them after a bit despite all the perceived options, and they can struggle to touch the soul or convey profound musical meaning. For me, even in the hands of a great artist, they sound two dimensional too often.

For the performer: The interaction between human emotion, muscle and sinew of the performer with the wood, metal and whatever else the instrument is made of produces a complex dialogue between performer and instrument. You feel the instrument talking to you as you play and you respond and it forms a reflexive dialogue where you can really make music, which at its essence is the language of emotion. I'd go as far as to say a transcendental conversation as you feel every vibration physically and aurally as you and truly interact with the instrument as equals.

I was really into electronics and synthesizers when I was a teenager. You could do everything with infinite variety and novelty. What was harder was making music, really making music where the earth moves, or at least wobbles for a moment.

Now that sounds like the real thing.... Well explained...

 

[debra]

Inviting controversy I'll say my piece ...

For the listener: The basic technology of the loud speaker is a limiting factor. It doesn't move air with the polyphonic complexity that scores of individual accordion reeds, organ pipes or drum skins....

In the audio industry "high fidelity" has come a long way in the past decades, and already achieved very good results for decades as well.
The small group I used to have in Antwerp used mainly Microvox accordion microphones in combination with two Bose L1 model 2 units, each with Tonematch engine. The result was that people in the audience came to me asking how we managed to achieve the sound volume we had without sounding like we used amplification. It sounded that natural. So (provided you spend enough money...) the loudspeaker is not the limiting factor, at least not in combination with the right pre-amp and amp. (We tried many things before that and it never sounded right until we got the Bose units.)

 

[Dingo40]

SaundersBP,
"You could do everything with infinite variety and novelty. What was harder was making music, really making music where the earth moves, or at least wobbles for a moment"
You're quite a poet!??

 

[saundersbp]

Cheers Dingo! We musicians are all poets though don't you think, that's ultimately what it's all about? Arguments about versatility, gadgets and utility (and personal views regarding expensive loudspeakers) don't really move me with musical instruments and music making. Pluralism and quick novelty are the enemies of art I reckon whatever the medium, however much they are the fashion. My experience with children is show them something of simple but sublime quality and they respond accordingly, show them gimmickry and something without a coherent identity and that's what they give back.

 

[losthobos]

Cheers Dingo! We musicians are all poets though don't you think, that's ultimately what it's all about? Arguments about versatility, gadgets and utility (and personal views regarding expensive loudspeakers) don't really move me with musical instruments and music making. Pluralism and quick novelty are the enemies of art I reckon whatever the medium, however much they are the fashion. My experience with children is show them something of simple but sublime quality and they respond accordingly, show them gimmickry and something without a coherent identity and that's what they give back.

Teacher......

 

[Dingo40]

SaundersBP,
"My experience with children is show them something of simple but sublime quality and they respond accordingly,"
Well, we've all heard the apocryphal story where the kids have discarded the toy only to play with the packaging it came in?
Given a chance, the old wooden building blocks can still grab their imagination!
I'm still crafting things out of the cut-off lumber scraps my (now deceased) carpenter foster father brought home from the building sites for firewood.?

All good!?

 

[jozz]

my kid keeps pressing the ON/OFF button of my FR1x while I'm playing - i wish it was situated at the top

I fear I must upgrade my quality - to subliminess!

(or teach him another lesson)

 

[Pipemajor]

my kid keeps pressing the ON/OFF button of my FR1x while I'm playing - i wish it was situated at the top

I fear I must upgrade my quality - to subliminess!

(or teach him another lesson)

Maybe they're trying to tell you something