Tell me all about CBA's!

[wodan22]

I am a newbie, having never played owned, or even held an accordion. However, I think I would like to take it up eventually and am researching accordions to try to figure out what kind is right for me and to help me in my first purchase. I initially thought of PA's, but was advised that I might want to check out CBA's, as well. I have been practicing some google-fu to get basic information, but I would also like to hear from experienced CBA owners and players.

So, tell me all about CBA's-anything you think I should know or want to talk about.

Why did you choose CBA over PA or some other kind of accordion? What do you like about it?

What should one look for in a good CBA/what should one avoid?

What are some good makers/brands? What brands//makers should I avoid like the plague?

B-system or C-system? Why?

 

[jarvo]

Do you have piano skills ? Whilst piano and piano - accordion are worlds apart in the way that they are played the basic fundamentals are the same....i.e.notes are in the same layout , arrangement...order.....and the scales etc are identically played.............but they definitely play differently and there all similarity ends..............so for a piano duffer like me the PA was the obvious way ....now I realise I have invested too much in adapting a manky piano style to a manky organ like accordion, to want to learn a new layout and pattern............

Those who practice the Dark Art of The Button Box will also bang on about the limitations of the Piano in terms of octaves and other things.........I can see their point, to be fair.....if you need more than two octaves and don't want a ton of wood on your chest Buttons is best.........

I think I have told you why NOT to play PA , rather than why to play Button Box ......The Button Box Imps will probably be along soon , so I'll just sod off.........Oh and Welcome Aboard...


CJ

 

[Anyanka]

Why I switched: in a nutshell: because I believe that it will help improve my accordion playing.

Not in the nutshell: I got curious about CBAs after trying out my husband's melodeon (diatonic button accordion) on holiday. I tried out a fast jig that covers some big intervals, and found it much much easier on the right hand on melodeon than PA, but the bass on melodeon is just too limiting and confusing! After a bit of research and discussion, I thought CBA was the way to go, but didn't know anyone that I could borrow one from to try it out. Adam (of this parish) posted something about a very cheap 2nd-hand 3-row 60-bass CBA on eBay, and I bought it just to have a go... and was hooked.

For me, the layout of the buttons is both logical and intuitive; because they are closer together, it's much easier covering big intervals such as octaves and above with accuracy; fast playing is easier. I had played piano for 4-5 years before taking up the piano accordion, nevertheless, relearning the button layout was easy. I bought my Pigini C37 on 14 July, and am playing it to very nearly the same standard now that I had on the PA. Admittedly, I practiced for several hours daily throughout the summer...

The biggest problem with CBAs is that they are less popular, and therefore harder to find cheaply/second-hand - although you will find that a lot of professionals, esp in continental Europe, and esp in the classical and jazz arena, play them. Size issues are similar to PA; for sessions and portability you might want a 3-row 48-bass (I've just bought a cheap one for Morris playing, waiting for it to be posted!) but for versatility you need at least a 72 bass. My 78-bass Pigini has 37 notes - but that's 62 buttons on 5 rows, as two of the rows are duplicated.

I don't think it matters whether you go for a B-system or a C-system. I've tried both, and will now stick with C-system because that's what the Pigini happens to be.

 

[jarvo]

<HIGHLIGHT highlight="#ffbf00">[highlight=#ffbf00]" My 78-bass Pigini has 37 notes - but that's 62 buttons on 5 rows, as two of the rows are duplicated."[/highlight]</HIGHLIGHT>



Why are they duplicated ? :roll:

CJ

 

[Anyanka]

For ease of playing, I assume - it can complicate matters when you're working out fingering, but for example: if your tune starts on an E you may want to play it in the 2nd row with your thumb, but if it's in the middle of a run, play it with finger 3 in row 5. There's a whole big debate about playing on 3 rows only and using the "spare" rows for transposing tunes only, or playing across all 5 rows all the time (which I do).

 

[donn]

I chose CBA because it's cool. No need to elaborate on this. C system.

I don't really play piano, but I know the piano keyboard as we had one around the house in my youth. Learning the CBA keyboard has been a struggle, honestly I can't say I am as well acquainted with it in every way, though I've been at it for years. The piano keyboard has this visual and tactile organization, such that you know at a glance what's where; the buttons are a simple, featureless diagonal array. When you're fabulously good, I think the CBA keyboard very likely has its real advantages. When you're just barely managing, those advantages may not be so relevant. But my obtuseness with respect to this learning challenge is exceptional, there are for sure people like Anyanka who pick it up with fewer difficulties.

As far as good vs. bad CBAs, I believe one can apply knowledge of piano accordions to this question. Many models have a piano keyboard twin, same reeds etc. I think I vaguely remember you may be in North America? (You may notice that some of us annotate our profiles to show our general location.) If I needed to replace mine, I'd think seriously about a vacation in Europe. There's at least one shop that appears to be fairly large in Nice, which would suit me as I would want a French musette style 3/3 stradella bass. I can assure you that at the right time of year, Nice is quite agreeable, including the people. I would love to visit Portugal, and as luck would have it that same style of accordion seems to prevail there, so I might do a little research on Lisbon. And of course there's Italy, really the most obvious destination.

 

[Anyanka]

I'm definitely not fabulously good at all... especially not at fast passages, which is precisely where the CBA helps me. I suspect that PA vs CBA have something to do with how our brains work, i.e. linear vs intuitive?

 

[dunlustin]

Some would say the 4th row is a must while the 5th is a nice-to-have.
One very clear advantage of the 4th row is the regularity of the chord shape:
Cmajor on row1 has Root -row1, Third - row2, Fifth row 2, Octave - row 1. Shape repeats for major chords of Eb, F#, A.
On row 2 the same shape repeats for Bb, C#, E, G.
The other chords based on row 3 would mean reaching back to row1, (making the octave impossible) by having this row1 repeat as row4, the shapes remain constant.
4-rows are (used to be) very popular in France, as also is the habit of not showing the #/b as black with natural notes white and they traditionally have no reference marks on the buttons (hence the "sea" Donn refers to).
Why? Well the French say "Why do simple when you can do complicated?"
By the way, where are the PA players - come on Chaps/Chapesses don't let us bully Wodan with our partisan standpoints.
One other thing - in the US there's a lot of Tex-Mex and such-like (he says from ignorance). They use a type of accordion which over here we (often) call "melodeon" For UK/European (mostly) players try melodeon.net otherwise you can get a lot from Youtube.

 

[dunlustin]

Just been to melodeon.net
Given a picture is worth a 1000 words:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13305.0/topicseen.html

 

[jarvo]

PA for me every time ---- I have invested too much time over a few years getting the fingers to do certain things that they do .....and can you do a Jerry Lee Lewis type glissando on a Button Box ?..... :lol:

I suppose if you can describe this motion with a finger /\/\/\/\ up and down the Button (?) Board then you can......would you want to ?


Jarvo.....firmly entrenched in PAccordionLand

 

[donn]

and they traditionally have no reference marks on the buttons

Elsewhere they do? Which notes?

Glissandos go up (or down) your choice of diminished scale rather than C scale. Im sure it sounds different, not always worse.

 

[Glenn]

By the way, where are the PA players - come on Chaps/Chapesses dont let us bully Wodan with our partisan standpoints.

OK, let me play the devils advocate...
I believe that the CBA is absolutely no better (or worse) than the PA.
I can play tons better on my PA due to a life long love of the regular piano.
Fast passages come out right (sometimes) and I find is very intuitive.
All the talk of transposing etc. doesnt wash with me because we hardly ever do it.
Once you learn it in a key it stays in that key.
Changes to another key are not that difficult on a PA. Normally it is the left hand harmonies on the piano which cause the problem but on a PA and CBA they are the same so not an issue.
As regards to intuitiveness and linearity of CBA to PA I cannot for the life of me see that this is true.
The CBA is also linear in my view. In fact more so than the PA.
The notes just follow in semitone order and are folded every three notes. On the PA the semitones have a skip between D and E which makes it rather non -linear.
If you want intuitive try a bandonion (there is alas no PA version of this instrument ).
Guess Ive made some CBA un-friends now... :?

ps. glissandos are not an option on a CBA

 

[dunlustin]

Donn's quote:"Elsewhere they do? Which notes?"
Usually there's cross-hatching on C and F on the R-hand - and on the L-hand too for Freebass.
Also on L-hand Stradella it is common to mark with a "dimple" or a notch for C E and Ab fundamental.
On my Italian CBA made for the French market there were no reference marks on the treble and just the C fundamental on the L-hand.
I can see why the absence of these marks would (could) be problematic.
When I started teaching myself British Chromatic (BCC#) I stuck on bits of cloth Elastoplast to give a different feel - worked for me.

ps Since taking a (recent) interest in CBAs I'm amazed at how many PA players there are out there - I clearly led a very sheltered life so, Glenn, it's good to see such a robust defence of your instrument

 

[Matt Butcher]

You can make great music on either system. If you play piano / keyboard to a good standard already, it must surely be easier to pick up where you left off on a piano accordion. I prefer CBA and the reasons generally given for the system are 1) you can span more notes without stretching your hand (speed, range); 2) the same phrase or right hand chord can be played in any key with the same finger pattern (and though you may not often transpose a whole tune, you will certainly play the same lick or chord pattern in a number of different tunes, in different keys, so this should make the learning process easier). The downside: depending where you are there may be fewer teachers and instruments. I think I have noticed that some people take naturally to the CBA - two young lads I have seen pick it up and basically play tunes straight off and they have gone on to play well. Probably the same applies to piano accordion, can't see why it wouldn't. So I would say, listen to players you like, try some different instruments if you can, check out whether there are teachers around for the system (piano/B system/C system) (even if you don't have regular lessons a visit to a teacher from time to time may set you straight in some problem areas), then go with your gut feeling.

B system / C system? I think it makes no odds in terms of playability, some seem to prefer one or the other and depending on location you may get more teachers or boxes in one system or the other.

You asked about makes - others will be better placed to advise. I have always bought by setting a budget and trying different boxes at around that price till one feels right / sounds right. Then I do what I can with that. (Avoid floppy bellows, unresponsive keyboards, rusty instruments.) Others here will give you more expert advice on choice of box. I appreciate depending on where you are you may not be able to try many in advance, in which case I would say listen to a lot of videos, find a sound you like, ask for advice on a decent box that sounds like that and you can afford.

 

[Matt Butcher]

What to look for in a good CBA: airtightness, responsiveness (i.e. play very gently - does it sound? play fast - do all the notes sound?). Balance - does it feel right on you? Play in and out a bit - any old rubbish will do - does it feel well balanced or is it going to tip you off the chair? Weight - if it's the weight of a wardrobe it will need to be well balanced to be playable. Keyboard - is it nice and smooth to play not clicky and stiff? Sound - do you like it? If you want to play a certain style of music, does this box produce an appropriate sound?

Again others who are more perfectionist than me will be able to say more and what you can expect will depend partly on your budget.

 

[donn]

The CBA is also linear in my view. In fact more so than the PA.

I took that to be Anyankas view as well, though I could be mistaken, but ... when we use linear in opposition to intuitive, I dont think its about the spacing or arrangement of the notes. Rather its about a cognitive strategy that could be described as linear, or sequential, in time, vs. one that doesnt have an obviously sequential process. Im sure in the second camp myself, when playing a musical instrument. I dont believe thats absolutely an obstacle to playing CBA, though, its just a question of a minor disadvantage in the cognitive accessibility of the keyboard.

Ive recently taken to marking a couple of right hand Cs with scraps of tape. I wouldnt be surprised if French children do the same. Eventually one has less need for them, I imagine.

 

[wodan22]

I am starting to see what people like/don't like about CBAs and getting a better understanding of the instrument and how it is played.

I am just going to kind of throw this out there: I don't have a whole lot of options as far as getting an accordion, as I can not find any accordion shops, accoridon dealers, or even community of folks who play in my neck of the woods. So, I can't just go into a store and try some out. Also, I can't just fly to Europe on holiday and pick one up, at this stage in the game. I am checking my local craigslist everyday (just in case, but no real luck as there are just not many accordion players, especially CBA players in my area), I don't trust ebay (or at least I don't trust my knwledge of accordions enough to try ebay), and I am checking the selling/buying instruments section on here. Hoping I might run into some luck there. Any other suggestions as far as where to go to look for an accordion (let's say for the sake of argument that I am going for a CBA).

I did come across the Button Box's website. I did see several CBAs (and PAs) that seem like they might be within my price range (I'm thinking I could probably swing between $1000-2000). I saw several Hohners and some Weltmeisters in that range. The also had several used CBA's I've heard that Hohner's are made in China and not good quality as they used to be. Is this only there low end stuff, or all of their instruments? (and should I avoid new/newish Hohners for this reason?). Would a Weltmeister be a reasonable option for me?

 

[donn]

Yeah, I could see how the accordion scene there could be so meager as to make the relative prevalence of PA vs CBA instruments, teachers etc. more or less irrelevant - if theres none of either! While there arent a lot of used CBAs for sale in the US, there will be a few nice ones if you turn over every stone. A large number of retailers here: http://www.accordionlinks.com/retailers.html. Liberty and Castle show a Paolo Soprani and a Cavagnolo respectively. Accordions International in Salt Lake City says theyre a Piermaria dealer, a high end CBA brand popular in France that for all I know may have some models on the more economical side. Most of these retailers would need to be contacted by phone, though - Liberty and Buttonbox are atypically internet-age.

 

[Matt Butcher]

I dont know about the up to date Hohners but the Weltmeisters have a reputation of being good value for money, decent playable instruments at a mid price. Donn mentioned a Paolo Soprani, in my opinion there are some decent Paolo Soprani CBAs around with great musette sounds, and they often sell for a mid price, but they tend to be older instruments so may be more risk of poor condition.

 

[Tom]

Welcome Genford!!!

What kind of music do you want to play on the accordion? You mention a number of disparate styles, but which of them are you thinking for the accordion (or all?). Unless you are super well heeled, I would not suggest spending $1500 (your midrange) on your first accordion. You should be able to get a decent used accordion for less, then when you know what you want, trade it in or give it away and get the one for you. It may be a Roland V accordion if you want to play all those styles, with jazz backup, etc. We can help you find what you're looking for. Just my 2 cents worth. You're only 100 miles from Charlotte, there must be accordionists there and probably shops. Rock on, Tom