The Joys of CBA's

[Galingale]

Hopefully, not too confusing.

Here are your basic maj scales: C, G and D. (You don't need the G row in this case, as it's exactly the same pattern as C or D).


It takes more time to understand how Osokin presents the material than to understand the system itself.

That's so kind of you to take the trouble to explain all that. Gonna work on it! Any more details of the book would be much appreciated.

 

[vivdunstan]

I envy you for doing anything with the App! I tried it but could never find where I was on the screen. At the end of the day, I think you just have to practice and practice, using tactile pressure and some manual dexterity.

Playing on the CBA box is vastly more useful, agreed. But I'm lucky that I'm currently finding the app helpful as well as I learn how the notes relate to each other. Yes I do have to look at it! But I can play tunes on it, both sides, and it's handy at other times. But playing on my box is by far the best. Which I am doing as often as I can.

 

[SteveBox]

It's a very easy, "universal" system that you use as a base for playing everything, and it keeps your hand in comfortable & relaxed position. C row & D row fingering are reasonably similar (unlike the 3-row keyboard where the 3 row fingerings are wildly different), and you only alter your fingerings if there's a good reason for it (you'll figure it out yourself, as everything is very intuitive).

Tcabot's description of the B-system fingering he is using is a revelation to me. Now I finally understand some of the comments that the C system makes no logical sense, or that 3-row systems require wildly different fingering. When talking about preferences for CBA keyboards, it is not just the button layout, but also the number of rows and fingering patterns across the rows that are important to understanding these preferences. Unlike the PA, there are a number of different ways to play a CBA.

Both of my CBA boxes are of French design, and as the traditional French school promotes playing primarily on 3 rows (on a C system), one of my instruments is 4 row and the other a very compact 3 row, no bigger than a melodeon. I never thought much about playing as tcabot prefers across all five rows (if I had a five row). So, on a three row, there are three fingering patterns one must learn (and I never considered them to be wildly different). The only reason for choosing a five-row instrument, by my previous understanding, is that you can then play in any key using any of the three three-row fingering patterns.

I will point out that tcabot's B-system fingering across all five rows would work equally well with a five-row C system, only the up and down diagonals would be reversed.

As for the traditional French school of playing, by my understanding, it is even more restrictive than playing primarily on three rows. They also teach you to rarely use your thumb or pinky finger, but mostly only the first three fingers unless you encounter a very awkward phrase. In this case, you are allowed to reach up to the helper row (if you have the fourth row) or even use your thumb. At least this is my understanding from what I have read and observed on videos. (I am self-taught, and only learned about this later on.) If someone knows differently, please correct my description!

To someone who likes to play across all five rows, this must seem almost crazy restrictive. Yet, there are many incredibly good French musicians who play this way. We humans can adapt to almost anything with enough practice. As for myself, I have tried the French way of playing, but I tend to use all five fingers across the three rows most of the time.

Here is one example of this type of playing. Although Sebastien is playing a five-row here, if you observe closely, you will see that he rarely uses anything other than the first three fingers and the first three rows.

 

[Siegmund]

I should point out that Osokin's fingering is merely the easiest one to explain to a new player ("hey look, one hand position and 4 fingers, and you can play EVERY major scale!"), not necessarily the best or easiest fingering.

I, for instance, generally would play C-D-E-F with 2-1-3-4, C on the 3rd row and D and F on the front two rows, followed by GABC on the middle three rows Osokin's way. Especially descending, getting from G to F is a whole lot easier if you do "4 under 2, F in the front row" rather than if you try to do "4 over 2, two rows farther back and 2 buttons farther left".

But it's great to be offered any fingering at all as a starting point, especially for the 2-note scales in thirds and sixths, and the arpeggios. I will at least try the fingerings he suggests when they are different from mine to see if he knows what he's talking about (and at least some of the time he does.)

The full title of the Osokin book is "Guide for Accordion Performers with Five Rows," or пособие для исполнителей на баяне с пятирядной правой клавиатурой. Published in 1976, so, yes, still in copyright, but it seems that Soviet authors had no expectation of retaining their rights, so lots of Soviet era books including this one are freely circulated on the internet.

There are few later Russian books that are written for 5-row bayans (and some of them offer several other fingering choices) but none of them has such a complete set of scales and arpeggios as Osokin's.

 

[tcabot]

Yet, there are many incredibly good French musicians who play this way.

Likewise, there are many 3-row bayan players who achieve exceptional levels of playing that I can't even dream of, despite using the 5-row. But for self-taught [talentless] amateurs like me the 5-row system is fantastic. Not only did I find the Osokin method a lot easier to learn and use (I almost never have to think about the fingering, unlike the traditional 3-row 4-finger technique, where books advise all beginners and intermediate players to read through the score, plan the position changes and the fingerings, and only then attempt playing it), but I can do it in any key after learning only 2 fingering patterns. A Balkan 6-row keyboard would require knowledge of only 1 pattern out of these 2, but knowing both is quite handy in practice.
I never use the 3-row fingerings that I started learning when I had a 3-row box, and I won't be able to play on 3 rows at all, which is very different to what you are describing about the French C.

Not saying that C is in any way inferior to B, but the mirrored structure & the shifted 4th row does mess with my mind to the point of it looking as alien, as Do2 or Finnish C. Interestingly enough, Kravtsov's keyboard makes more sense to me than C-griff.

This does create issues if you want to go free bass, as almost all instruments, converter or not, use 3 or 4 free bass rows. This means that your left hand has to learn the 3-row 4-finger system, while your right hand is playing a completely different 5-row system. I get surprised when I read folks saying that B treble and C bass is for masochists - to me it makes no difference whether there's B, C or MIII in the left hand, as they are all sufficiently different from the right hand side.

 

[tcabot]

is merely the easiest one to explain to a new player ("hey look, one hand position and 4 fingers, and you can play EVERY major scale!"), not necessarily the best or easiest fingering.

Having seen the trad 3-row books and Semenov's "Modern Bayan School" method, I'd say Osokin is by far the easiest. It's specifically the 1-2-3-4 -- 1-2-3 OR 1-2-3 -- 1-2-3-4 pattern that he's promoting in the first few pages, and I think as the base (i.e. the starting point) it's very user friendly & intuitive. Minor scales follow the same finger work.
When it doesn't work, you just figure out yourself that it's easier to use a different fingering, but it doesn't happen often, and when it does, it's quite intuitive.
Semenov's fingerings are, apparently, very good to learn too, but it's been a while since I've looked at them.

 

[vivdunstan]

As for the traditional French school of playing, by my understanding, it is even more restrictive than playing primarily on three rows. They also teach you to rarely use your thumb or pinky finger, but mostly only the first three fingers unless you encounter a very awkward phrase. In this case, you are allowed to reach up to the helper row (if you have the fourth row) or even use your thumb. At least this is my understanding from what I have read and observed on videos. (I am self-taught, and only learned about this later on.) If someone knows differently, please correct my description!

I watch a lot of French CBA (C system) players on YouTube, including many using Maugein boxes like mine. And yes they typically don’t use the thumb and rarely use the pinky. I am still in the early stages, learning from Maugain who does advocate use of the thumb and pinky. But I find my middle fingers are strongest, and when I’m improvising playing tunes by ear I’m more likely to use just those. Also with my right hand weakness from my neurological disease holding the thumb firm is tempting. So when I’m more experienced and making more of my own choices I may veer that way for personal preference. But for now it’s thumb and 4 fingers.

 

[Dingo40]

I, personally, don't own a CBA so all this is purely academic for me, though quite interesting.
There's certainly a super-abundance of choice!
I know Ffingers has a five-row B-griff. CBA.
What do you make of Osokin, Ffingers?

 

[Siegmund]

Semenov's fingerings are, apparently, very good to learn too, but it's been a while since I've looked at them.

I forgot I even had his book, so I had to drag it out tonight.

His F- and G-major scales are essentially the same as Osokin's (plus or minus a choice of which 7 of the 8 notes to repeat when you do multiple octaves) but his C major scale is quite interesting. Instead of using an Osokin grouping, he places 1-2-3-4 on FrontB - C - Back D - E (and then uses 1-2-3 on F-G-A.) I've never tried that. I'm going to have to see how that feels. It is reminiscent of some of Osokin's arpeggio fingerings where he plays D-F#-A-D with 1(front)-2-3-4(back) rather than 1(front)-2-3-5(front).

 

[Ffingers]

I, personally, don't own a CBA so all this is purely academic for me, though quite interesting.
There's certainly a super-abundance of choice!
I know Ffingers has a five-row B-griff. CBA.
What do you make of Osokin, Ffingers?

This thread is the first that I have read about Osokin - I shall have tp look into it.

Not that I have any ambitions in the "truly competent" sense nor to engage in public performance.

 

[tcabot]

Glad I've brought something "new" to the forum.

 

[Galingale]

Do you have Stradella-Stradella or do you have French bass in your left? I expect French bass to be much better for these styles.

I don't think language makes any difference to fingering guides at all.
There's a 1976 book by a fella called Osokin with the 5-row B-griff fingering system. You only need to read russian if you want to know what's in the introductory chapter, as the rest of it is pretty self-explanatory charts for 3rd & 1st row fingerings for different scales.
I was playing the 5-row RHS after only a couple weeks practicing scales and sight-reading very basic tunes.

If you want to master a 3-row keyboard, then I don't think that the best book in the world will help you if you don't have a very experienced teacher who can introduce you to the dark art of playing 3-row B system, or at least that was my impression when I tried it.

Thanks so much for all your help. Just one thing is bothering me, why do you think the 3 row French bass is better for Rock and Roll/blues?
The reason I'm asking is that I've programmed my Roland Fb1 to the 3 row bass system, just to try it and I can't see any advantages. I guess there must be, otherwise the French would not use it, but I can't see what it is. Can you help me?

 

[tcabot]

I think it just makes it easier to play a large number of blues & rock riffs when you have the handy extra bass row.
The same riffs are possible without the additional bass, but your left hand fingers have to do more work.

 

[losthobos]

the 3 row bass system, just to try it and I can't see any advantages. I guess there must be, otherwise the French would not use it, but I can't see what it is. Can you help me?

Because the minor third is easier to reach should you be playing minor chords...ie over Major you may well play R,3,5, as a simple new Orleans bass line
To sound more authentic you could play R,b3(row closest bellows)slur to 3 (middle row) 5.....think Hound dog bass line for aural reference...
Over minor chords the R,b3,5 is possible without having to stretch to pinkie finger way downstream..
Hope that helps...

 

[Galingale]

OK , thanks guys. I'll try that.