Thoughts on LH free bass orientation?

[stickista]

From my first foray into Free bass (C system) I’ve faced the issue of whether the LH layout should have low notes on the top or the bottom.
On my Geuns hybrid bandos I went with the standard low note on top config, feeling that having the hands directly mirror each other would speed up learning. But after 5 years of playing it, I find that visualization of the space in general, and reading in particular, is a struggle. I still find it hard to see my hands as living in a single unified space they way I do on piano.
I think it comes down to a basic disconnect where tonally, my brain doesn’t want to accept notes going “up” as my hands move “down” towards the floor, and that’s particularly true when reading… when I see notes go up on the page, my left hand wants to move ‘up’ for the note as well. (For some reason its not as much of an issue on the right, maybe because piano has wired my brain to think of my right pinky as ‘up”.)
Having played piano I understand that FB B system is essentially taking a full B system as layed out on a piano and folding it in half. If you did that with a piano, he left hand would move up as notes ascend.
In thinking about a left side I’m probably going to have built for my Benetoux (currently RH only) I played a small bass button free bass that was B system, so high notes on top.
I was surprised (shocked actually) at how much more natural that felt, and immediately regretted the past 5 years of struggling with traditional LH C system orientation.
My dilemma now is whether or not I should have Thierry build my LH trad or like B sys.
Since I’m going to have a significant learning curve with the small buttons anyway (my bandos have full size LH buttons, and I’ll be losing the ability to use my left thumb) and there’s a part of me that enjoys the challenge and learning opportunities, I'm close to going with Low notes at bottom.

Does anyone know why C free bass adopted low note at top?
And are there free bass players here who have thoughts on how effective it is playing bass notes more with the pinky and chord tones with 1 and 2?

It’ll be a big change for me, and at age 73 one takes learning curve more into consideration.

 

[Vladimir M.]

Does anyone know why C free bass adopted low note at top?

Because despite the "melodic" - suffix, it's always just bass. And the bass is always assumed to have slightly lower sound positions compared to the treble (=discant). Therefore, from a physiological, haptic and anatomical point of view, it is more natural if the deepest notes in the melodic bass are placed upwards. I play a melodic bass -C-system, in which it is exactly like this and that's why it suits me. When gripped with my left hand, I have a better force effect when pressing on the bellows if my hand is on the top and not the bottom of the bass corpus. It's less strenuous for a longer playing. On the contrary, softer, higher notes require less force, and therefore it suits me that their buttons are on the lower part, where I exert less force on average.

Best regards,

Vladimir

 

[debra]

In Europe both C-system and B-system left hand sides used to have the low notes at the top. It's only in recent years (maybe 2 or 3 decades) that B-system players have started adopting the Russian layout with the low notes at the bottom. (Russian PA players also have melody bass with the low notes at the bottom.)
Personally I find that the mirrored layout (C-system for me) works very well, not just mentally but also physically. In melody bass you tend to use the lower half of the (58) note range by far the most, so your hand is in the top half as well, which is the best position for the hand operating the bellows. With the Russian layout it is problematic to play the lowest octave because your hand is all the way down and that makes the bellows operation difficult. What you see with players of the Russian (B-)system is that for the lowest octave they tend to use the Stradella base notes higher up and move to melody bass once past the lowest octave. That way they avoid having the hand all the way down. But this requires mentally switching from the Stradella quint layout to chromatic layout when moving between the lowest and the higher octaves.
So imho the mirrored approach works better simply because it lets you keep your hand in the upper half of the accordion most of the time.
Of course on a really small instrument (I assume that's what stickista is talking about) the situation is different.

 

[kimric]

There is a purely mechanical reason that having the bass notes on the bottom works best.
With the low notes on the same end there is the problem of the left and right side reed blocks not having enough room.
You have to use a lot of shorter bass reeds with weighted tips to get the low notes due to space constraints. This affects response.
Having the low left side reeds on the bottom allows them to extend into the keyboard space and allows for longer reeds.

 

[Ffingers]

My take as someone just getting into this game - the piano has left-hand notes progressing upwards towards the head and the right hand notes getting higher away from the head.
So a piano/keyboard player would be more predisposed to the 'bayan' bass - but, with a bit of mental adaptability and dedicated practice even on the Bandoneon is possible to become thoroughly accomplished!
This bloke seems to manage quite well:

https://www.youtube.com/@ConstantiniMusic

don't you reckon?!

 

[dak]

There is a purely mechanical reason that having the bass notes on the bottom works best.
With the low notes on the same end there is the problem of the left and right side reed blocks not having enough room.
You have to use a lot of shorter bass reeds with weighted tips to get the low notes due to space constraints. This affects response.
Having the low left side reeds on the bottom allows them to extend into the keyboard space and allows for longer reeds.

Do you have any images showing either the problem or how bass-low addresses this? Jigsawing the reed blocks into one another like that would seem rather bad for maintaining constant pitch at different opening ratios.

 

[kimric]

I dont have a B system freebass in the shop right now, but if you look at how large the bass reed in a normal accordion are you will see how the blocks barely clear the low notes on the right side. You can put a bead of clay on top of the lowest notes on the right and assemble the instrument to see the dent in the clay where they come together (you use this trick to figure out where to place crystal mics).
This is addressed by using shorter reeds with weighted tips, and or canting the low reeds at angles to get clearamce, but this eats up space on the left for the higher paired octave reeds.

 

[debra]

There is a purely mechanical reason that having the bass notes on the bottom works best.
With the low notes on the same end there is the problem of the left and right side reed blocks not having enough room.
You have to use a lot of shorter bass reeds with weighted tips to get the low notes due to space constraints. This affects response.
Having the low left side reeds on the bottom allows them to extend into the keyboard space and allows for longer reeds.

This argument is generally false.
Here is an example bass side. Rest assured, they almost all look quite similar inside.
The lowest octave (and perhaps a bit more) uses a completely rectangular reed block, equally tall on both ends. Whether the low notes are on the left or the right in this picture, it makes no difference for the amount of space the reed block requires.
If you want to see a picture of a different (convertor) accordion, I have lots. They are all the same.

Some that are different use "Winkelbaß" for the lowest octave. Again it requires the same amount of room, regardless of whether the low notes are at the top or the bottom.

 

[dak]

If you want to see a picture of a different (convertor) accordion, I have lots. They are all the same.

The converters at least have some slanted reed blocks (even if I've never seen the lowest bass reed block slanted). Standard bass tends to look more like that:


And one reason for that is that it is better for masking the octave break if all the reeds of one reed group share the same size and reed chamber shape.

 

[Ventura]

to see the dent in the clay

THAT i like.. i shall use your tip (someday)

Thanks

 

[kimric]

"This argument is generally false." Helps if you read the entire thread before you just throw something like this out.
I was talking about freebass instruments.

 

[Ffingers]

"This argument is generally false." Helps if you read the entire thread before you just throw something like this out.
I was talking about freebass instruments.

Which kind of 'freebass' though?
Wre you only referring to instuments which are purely 'freebass' and made eons ago by one American manufacturere who failed miserably in his commercial efforts or the multitude of minor European, Soviet, Balkan and Scandinavian makers form the past?

 

[dak]

"This argument is generally false." Helps if you read the entire thread before you just throw something like this out.
I was talking about freebass instruments.

@debra showed a picture of a converter accordion bass side.

Funnily it is my own main instrument that kind of supports your argument against my experience:


While indeed the bass octave reed block is level and carries the largest reed plates, it still does not stick as far into the instrument as the staggered other reed blocks (this is because its pallets are way further outside than the pallets of the higher pitched reeds). However, it still gets along fine with having the highest parts of the slanted reed blocks in left and right hand on the same side.

 

[Vladimir M.]

Well, boys, finally reconcile yourselves. Each of you is partially right, it depends on the design of the instrument you have in mind.

In my case, for example, the cassotto-wall is dominant in the treble (It is at the same height de facto in the middle of the inside of the discant-corpus), so it doesn't matter at all on which side there will be large and on which side there will be small reed plates:

In addition, it is always possible to add two or three folds to the bellow, which will increase the bass-discant distance without suffering the stability of the bellow. This makes this question technically irrelevant.

Back to the topic: No one is surprised that the deepest tones are at the top in the treble. It's understandable, we play in higher positions, so it's physiologically more natural - we don't have to bend our arms so much at the elbow. That's why I love my 45-key instrument, because it allows me to play an octave higher, which means less elbow bend = less effort. It's similar in free bass. I rarely need the highest notes/tones, so I don't mind that in the C-system their buttons are at the very bottom. I need the middle and lower notes/tones much more often, and it is good that they are physiologically oriented higher, because the left hand has to not only play, but also exert force to pull and press on the bellow.

That's my two cents.

Best regards, Vladimir

 

[JerryPH]

Does anyone know why C free bass adopted low note at top?
And are there free bass players here who have thoughts on how effective it is playing bass notes more with the pinky and chord tones with 1 and 2?

Yes so that it matches the direction of the tones on both hands... low at top, higher as you slide down. It's just logical to me.

Yet, when I was talking to someone a couple days ago, if someone is a pianist, there is NOTHING more natural than starting the lowest note on a keyboard with the left hand pinky at the furthest part (bottom?) of the keyboard and reverse that with the right hand, so for a pianist THAT is just more logical than a standard C-system orientation.

It’ll be a big change for me, and at age 73 one takes learning curve more into consideration.

That is a helluva challenge to take at 73, so respect... let us know your choices and how it goes.

 

[stickista]

Yes so that it matches the direction of the tones on both hands... low at top, higher as you slide down. It's just logical to me.

Yet, when I was talking to someone a couple days ago, if someone is a pianist, there is NOTHING more natural than starting the lowest note on a keyboard with the left hand pinky at the furthest part (bottom?) of the keyboard and reverse that with the right hand, so for a pianist THAT is just more logical than a standard C-system orientation.


That is a helluva challenge to take at 73, so respect... let us know your choices and how it goes.

I commented recently on some post asking the definition of “old”.
I said its the moment you stop having goals.
And on a not unrelated thought, I pity my family trying to figure out what to do with my instruments when I’m gone…
Chapman Stick (non-standard mirrored 4ths tuning)
2 Hybid CBA Bandoneons
Melody-only 3 row CBA Accordion
(and potentially soon to become non-standard free bass)
2 Accordinas
… All CBAs marked on C,D,G

 

[stickista]

I’m also thinking that the ideal leverage for opening/closing of bellows on accordion is from the top, for a fan-shaped motion. On bandoneon on (even on my cba bandos) gravity is more fundamental than arm involvement.

 

[John M]

I commented recently on some post asking the definition of “old”.

"Old" is relative. "Old" is 10 years older than you are right now.