Treble pads refreshing - suede with felt or just suede ?

[MilkoTV]

Greetings!
I am repairing an old Elettra.
The treble keys are noisy and I believe the pallets need replacing.
Would you please advise about options:
Option 1: Removing the old 2 mm felt + 1 mm suede (turned out to be a tricky business) and replacing with new 2mm felt + 1mm suede.
Option 2: Gluing new 1mm suede on top of the existing old ones
Option 3: Gluing new sandwich of felt + suede (1mm felt +1 mm felt) on top of the existing old ones
Option 4: ? (besides giving up

Also, would you advice where in US one can find 1mm suede suitable for the task ?
(suede + felt I have sources for)

Thanks and regards!

 

[niels]

Welcome MilkoTV. What a nice surprise that you are repairing an Elettra. I have one as well an like it a lot.
I am looking forward to the advice that will come your way. Have you considered taking the key mechanism apart, cleaning the underside of the pallets, gluing on new felt+leather?

 

[Juls108]

Having successfully re-faced pallets treble and bass on several accordions, my first step is to remove all the keys to access the pallets. It would be advisable to replace all the facing material(s) as close as possible to the depth or thickness of the original(s), if only for the sake of retaining accuraacy of both pallet and alignment. As well as suppliers of accordion parts, a variety of useful materials may be sourced in hobby shops and car accessory stores.

 

[debra]

Just buy felt+leather material in (about) the right thickness. If the size (length and width) you need is pretty standard you can buy new felt pre-cut to the right size. (It's more expensive than doing the cutting yourself, but if it's just for this one accordion it's worth it as buying a "sheet" of the material just leaves you with extra felt+leather for several more accordions.
You should measure the total thickness where the felt+leather has not been compressed (i.e. where it goes over the holes in the soundboard, not at the edges). It doesn't hurt if the new felt+leather is half a millimeter thicker. When the new felt is thicker it reduces the key travel but half a millimeter is negligible. The thicker the felt the better it will dampen the movement and thus the less noise you get on key release.
It is highly advisable to buy felt+leather together pre-glued so that you are less likely to have a mishap where you use a glue that ends up penetrating the leather (through and through) so that the pallets stick to the soundboard after a few months (like in the time period of the "Klebemorino") or even several years (with some felt+leather used by factories around 2014).

 

[MilkoTV]

Thank you for the suggestions.
I was planning not to remove the keys, just the pallets and hot-glue them back.
I have no issue removing the pallets, that is easy. Also, using a whole felt + suede sheet was my plan.

I just found difficult removing the felt from 1 pallet - it could not be cut off and had to be shaved, which takes a lot of time and still some material stays on the pallet. But I guess patience is the key. Thoughts ?

How about a sticky key ? Is WD40 a good idea or I have to remove the treble keys rack?
From what I see it is just a long rod with keys and springs.
The picture springs flying all over the place makes me nervous ...
Any suggestions or instructions how to safely remove the rack ?

Thanks

 

[MilkoTV]

Welcome MilkoTV. What a nice surprise that you are repairing an Elettra. I have one as well an like it a lot.
I am looking forward to the advice that will come your way. Have you considered taking the key mechanism apart, cleaning the underside of the pallets, gluing on new felt+leather?

Hi Niels,
I removed 1 pallet and saw that it has significant impressions of the square holes it covers. Cleaning won't help.
But you might be right - the noise might come from the mechanisms themselves.
Have you taken such apart ?

 

[niels]

Have you taken such apart ?

Hi Milko, no I haven't taken it apart (yet?). I have just begun work on an old Curtini that needs fresh felt, and also wondering how to go about it. So your thread is really interesting to me.

My Curtini is not a piano accordion though, it is CBA, which has a different mechanism for the keys. So for that reason I may start a thread parallel to yours.

 

[debra]

The safest way to do this repair is to take the keyboard apart. Then you can try to "shave off" the old felt and replace it without having to remove the wooden pallet from the lever and put it back on.
If you do want to remove the wooden pallets and later put them back you can do the whole repair without keyboard disassembly. You might want to consider just buying new wooden pallets to put the felt on. They are mass-produced and therefore not very expensive. Keep in mind that the connection between key lever/arm and wooden pallet needs to be made with accordion wax, not with hot glue!!! The wax allows for later adjustments to the pallet position is needed to level the keys or the pallets to avoid air leaks and notes sounding without a key being pressed.
Some other points: A piano keyboard, when it is clean, free from grease or dirt, should work flawlessly without any lubrication. Do not use WD40 or any other lubricant. (A button accordion keyboard is different and does need to be lubricated.) Also, the "significant impressions of the square holes" is exactly the reason why you should measure the thickness of the felt+leather where the holes are, not the sides that get compressed over time. If you brush the leather "against the grain" with a toothbrush or some other rather stiff brush that reduces the keyboard noise for a while but it is not a long-term fix.

 

[tcabot]

What's wrong with hot melt glue? It's pretty adjustable when heated up, sticks well enough, doesn't crack with time like reed wax, cleans up better than reed wax.

 

[MilkoTV]

The safest way to do this repair is to take the keyboard apart. Then you can try to "shave off" the old felt and replace it without having to remove the wooden pallet from the lever and put it back on.
If you do want to remove the wooden pallets and later put them back you can do the whole repair without keyboard disassembly. You might want to consider just buying new wooden pallets to put the felt on. They are mass-produced and therefore not very expensive. Keep in mind that the connection between key lever/arm and wooden pallet needs to be made with accordion wax, not with hot glue!!! The wax allows for later adjustments to the pallet position is needed to level the keys or the pallets to avoid air leaks and notes sounding without a key being pressed.
Some other points: A piano keyboard, when it is clean, free from grease or dirt, should work flawlessly without any lubrication. Do not use WD40 or any other lubricant. (A button accordion keyboard is different and does need to be lubricated.) Also, the "significant impressions of the square holes" is exactly the reason why you should measure the thickness of the felt+leather where the holes are, not the sides that get compressed over time. If you brush the leather "against the grain" with a toothbrush or some other rather stiff brush that reduces the keyboard noise for a while but it is not a long-term fix.

Thanks Paul, that helps a lot!
The need of readjusting the pallets later make sense why hot glue is not a good option.

Decided to change the felt and got 2mm felt + 1mm suede sandwich.
Will remove the keys and clean them up - turned out to be easier than I expected. The rod holding them is going trough 2 "ears" on both side of each key, so it is straight forward to pull it out and put it back in.

About lubricating piano accordion (which mine is) treble keys - I noticed that the keys have brass bearings with some lubrication on them...
Would silicon lubrications paste be a good choice ?

Thanks

 

[John Doe]

Keep in mind that the connection between key lever/arm and wooden pallet needs to be made with accordion wax, not with hot glue!!! The wax allows for later adjustments to the pallet position is needed to level the keys or the pallets to avoid air leaks and notes sounding without a key being pressed.

What's wrong with hot melt glue? It's pretty adjustable when heated up, sticks well enough, doesn't crack with time like reed wax, cleans up better than reed wax.

Tradition aside the only reason I can see for avoiding hot melt glue - or shellac- is that unless the old wax was throughly cleaned off there might well be adherance issues. Both hot melt glue and shellac are pretty much all that is used in seating the pads on sax's and assorted woodwinds (not flute pads, which are held in with screws). All of the larger pad seatings are really painstaking in the need for very fine adjustments and all require periodic readjustments by reheating the adhesive in situ months and years after the initial installation. Both can be applied with hot melt "guns" which would really simplify pallet installation.

I'm perfectly willing to accept there's some reason I haven't considered- but I've no idea what it might be.

Henry

PS A real down to earth simple explanation might be that anyone in the accordion construction business is bound to be very comfortable with using and applying melted wax and would surely have it on hand in quantity... and it works perfectly well. Starting from a "just attaching pallets" position though, the glue or shellac (shellac being a bit old school itself) would also seem to work just as well and for a novice have a less steep learning curve.

You surely wouldn't want to have half your pallets with one adhesive and half with another- might still work without issue but would, at least to me, present the appearance of really slipshod workmanship. If you're just doing a couple- use what's already there. If you're doing all, then choose between the options- I personally would probably use shellac since it ssets up hard and won't melt in a hot car but can easily be heated for readjustment. Of course- I'm really comfortable with using shellac- a novice might find it no easier than wax.

Anyone could master hot melt glue. It comes in different melting points, degrees of dimensional stability while coling, and hardness when cooled. In the end you're going to have to learn a new skill to use any of the three competently.

 

[John Doe]

(In reference to potential lubricant.)

Whatever you use (if anything) it must not "run" or "creep" and should not present itself as a "dust and crud magnet".

There are silicone lubes which go on in a carrier which then evaporates leaving no sticky runny residue. Same same for some teflon lubes. In lubricants, once you get past the liquids and gels into the powders you still run the risk of a considerable mess. Some GREAT in the short term and near catastrophic months/years later

What do experienced repairmen use here? I leave it to those several who frequent this board to respond.

 

[debra]

...
About lubricating piano accordion (which mine is) treble keys - I noticed that the keys have brass bearings with some lubrication on them...
Would silicon lubrications paste be a good choice ?

Thanks

The lubrication you see may not have been there originally. I have only seen it (as original) in some old accordions that have a keyboard mechanism without a spindle. Lubrication in general will attract dust and dirt and in the end cause more friction than no lubrication at all. Some people have recommended using a "dry lube". I have been advised by a piano repairman to use Protek CLP (liquid with syringe for precise application) or Mc Lube (spray). I would definitely not use any paste, nor silicon sprays or wd-40.

 

[tcabot]

You can use graphite powder, but I don't see any benefit, really. Had some spare powder so tried it and I haven't noticed any improvement in key action.

 

[Dingo40]

Graphite powder is unsightly, spreads everywhere, could potentially clog up reeds and valves.
Having tried it on domestic and motor car locks, I wouldn't personally advise its use on accordions

 

[debra]

You can use graphite powder, but I don't see any benefit, really. Had some spare powder so tried it and I haven't noticed any improvement in key action.

Specialized products like Protek CLP exist for a reason...

 

[Dingo40]

protek clp lubricant - Google Search

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

Lubricant suggestion: Molykote M77 (hope I've remembered that correctly!) is a silicone grease, heavily loaded with molybdenum disulphide. It's an 'assembly paste', designed to facilitate metal-metal force fits, and to inhibit fretting corrosion. It's also used to lubricate the sliding surfaces in car disc brakes. A VERY thin smear is all that's needed - just barely visible. I don't think crud accumulation would be a problem, but Paul's warning is to be taken seriously. Beware the accordion cowboy with an oil can!

 

[Dingo40]

molybdenum disulphide.

Very unsightly, like powdered graphite.

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

I mentioned Molykote M77 (it's excellent, in the appropriate applications) in good faith, having confused Protec CLP with another 'Something CLP', with which I'm familiar - and not impressed. From what I've been able to find out, Protec CLP sounds like the mutt's nuts. Didn't know about it - must get some! Thanks for the recommendation!

[Edit. Seems like it's another example of Unobtainium in NZ. Grrr!]