Why are German reeds considered inferior?

[Morne]

Is my question accurate in that there is sometimes a common sentiment that the German-made reeds are inferior in some respects to the Italian ones?

I am not asking this to question the sentiment, but to understand the reasons for why they are considered inferior.

What are we comparing here?

Is it a matter of how they've held up over time compared to Italian reeds from the same time?
Were they more prone to breaking or going out of tune compared to similar Italian instruments?
Is it with regard to playability, such as weaker response and using more air?
Is it based on sound preference? Would the sound have been consider superior/inferior for certain genres or audiences in the actual time periods they were used?

Anything else?
Am I reading too much into a few comments at different accordion forums?

I haven't specially gone out and tried to find samples of music played on German reeds versus Italian reeds. If there is a big difference, then I plead innocence.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Morne,

I own a German instrument, and am perfectly happy with the sound quality it produces. Please note that I have little experience of the Piano Accordion, and you must therefore weigh my comments accordingly.

By way of a comparison, I had a friend play an Italian and a Chinese instrument for me (both 120 Bass). In honesty, I could hardly differentiate between the two. I have listened to a great deal of accordion music on YouTube, and only one instrument (Italian) sounded significantly better than all the others. Regrettably, I have since forgotten what make this instrument was, and it is now unlikely that I will randomly chance upon it again.

Alles Van de Beste, Meneer.

Stephen Hawkins.

 

[Nuuksu]

I think that it is matter of taste. I have old Hohner Organetta iV similar to this http://www.akkordeon-museum.de/index.php?p=akkordeons&cat=1&id=18 and it has german made reeds. They do sound different from italian ones. These german reeds what are inside my Hohner are very good, they are very loud and respond very well, they also dont have overblowing effect if I play very loudly and with strong force. Suprising is that it is four voice accordion and it is very lightweight. My grandfather who tuned and repaired accordions told that Hohner had its own metal for reed plates and tongues. Sound of that instrument is not everyones favourite because it is quite bright and cristal clear, somewhat metallic, still very beautiful, suits very well for german and austrian music. Also bass sound of this instrument is very different from italian instruments - it is very well balanced not too quiet, not too loud.

I personally cant say that italian reeds are superior than german, french or russian bayan ones, they are voiced for different styles of music. Nowdays mostly italian ones are used because italian accordion brands are most popular. Variety of reeds used in diatonic instruments are much bigger.

 

[donn]

It's like Italian motorcycles, shoes, etc., etc. Some things, they just know.

 

[JerryPH]

Well, I thought my Morino VI N was all German, only to be told recently that it likely has better sounding Italian reeds (from Excellsior?). I don't kow what anymore and honestly won't lose much sleep over it, but I can tell you there is a day and night difference in sound between it and my Elka 83, an insturment that is also Cassotto. I love the distinct powerful sound of this Hohner, and merely "like" the sound of the Elka (which I kow is likely an Iorio or some other brand too... lol)

In the end my opinion is that people need to not pay as much attention to anything except the sound that comes out of the box and the quality of the internals. If you have done the research and found a preference, go for it, no matter if Italian, German, Russian, etc...

 

[JIM D.]

Hi Morne:
I've for many years now listened to the comment "Italian reeds are better than German reeds" , well really this has become simply an "Old Wives' Tale" (A myth or superstition) as machine made and Italian reeds are basically the same quality. Hand finished German and Italian reeds are again basically the same. Fine hand made reeds are produced today by Italian firms such as Salpa or Binci that don't build accordions but just manufacture quality reeds and are used by many manufactures producing professional (high cost) accordions today. German firms such as Hohner or Weltmeister (for example) will have orders for 100 accordions 98% of their basic models but 2% are for a pro model. Since their production line or machinery is not set up to produce a fine hand made reed it's of course st's financially expedient to out source them from another maker. And now on the other hand there are Italian accordion makers that produce fine models of European style accordion's that require Helicon reeds. Since their production lines are not set up for these, buy hand made German Helicon's


Later on this subject : JIM

 

[Nuuksu]

Good post Jim. It clearly indicates that different countries demand different sound and italians just can't actually produce reeds for these different needs. I haven't heard italian made bayan what actually sounds like real bayan. Jim's helikon example are very good, bayan bass reeds come somewhat close to helikon but still there isn't any similarity in sound. Hohner's powerful and loud sound was very famous, that made Hohner from Hohner.

There is also catch what is maybe little forgotten - different models used sometimes different reeds and lower price models used lower quality reeds. I'm quite sure that it is true also for italian accordions, I'don't believe that they put high quality reeds on budget and middle priced models. This is true for Weltmeister and Royal Standard - Original Klingenthal Weltmeister Supita had much better reeds than lower price Weltmeister Stella, Consona. Same With Royal Standard - Selecta had much better reeds than Silvana, Montana, Romance and so on.

It is nothing wrong with italian reeds, I enjoy my Accordiola Jazzmaster very much, but still I enjoy german made Hohner sound and russian bayan sound.

Italian reeds are just italian accordion makers vision how accordion should sound, like in Hi-Fi - everybody have their own vision how loudspeaker, amplifier, turntable and dac should sound and how music should be recorded. Some say full-range driver is better than multiway speakers, some say moving coil cartridges are better than mocing magnet and so on...same with italian, german, russian and chinese reeds.

 

[JerryPH]

Hohners powerful and loud sound was very famous, that made Hohner from Hohner.

I dont know a quality reed from a hole in the ground, but I do play on a couple of accordions, one being a Hohner Morino VI N. Even as a 13-14 year old boy, playing in an orchestra of over 20 other accordionists (where the next youngest player was in their mid 20s), I was pretty easily able to out volume the entire group (most were Excelsiors and one was a Cordavox), so yes the power and volume was there as well as the quality, however, if we agree with Paul De Bra, he says that, at least in this case, this was done using italian reeds, and so that distinct German sound that became a famous Hohner signature... came from Italian reeds, at least in the case of the Morino VI N.

Assuming this to be true, at the top end of the quality tree, the Italian reed designers mastered not only how to design reeds that provided the signature sound of Italian accordions, but what became the the signature sound of the Hohner or German line as well.

To be sure, lower quality reeds adorned the insides of the lower models, but I am sure that there had to be more than one kind there as well as there are many tonal differences even in the lower priced models.

So the question of what makes a German accordion sound different from the Italian accordion is sometimes a bit muddied because of the cross contamination, if you will. It makes classifying sounds a bit more challenging or choosing reeds for a distinctive sound harder for the general public.

 

[Nuuksu]

Reeds in my Hohner Organetta IV are certainly german made, mine is built in 1936.

Bugari reeds are mentioned in this model http://akkordeon-museum.de/index.php?p=akkordeons&cat=1&id=49

 

[debra]

I would not make any firm statement about which reeds are better or worse. But they are all different. The Hohner Morino N series mostly used reeds made by Bugari. The later Morino S series used Cagnoni reeds. (Bugari stopped making its own reeds at some point.) The difference in reeds can best be heard when a reed needs to be replaced and is replaced by a reed from a different manufacturer (but the same reed type and quality. When a whole instrument uses different reeds it's harder to notice the difference. I love the sound of the Bugari Artist Cassotto instruments. But over the past 15 years they have used at least 3 different brands of reeds. The sound of an instrument depends much more on the overall construction of the instrument than on the brand of the reeds. You can hear the difference but there is no big difference in sound when (all the) reeds are replaced by a different brand.

 

[landro]

Personally I`m not an expert on German reeds vs Italian reeds but on this side of the pond (US) few (if any) demand anything other than an Italian made accordion. Well known Italian branded reeds such as Bugari, Binci, Brevetatto, Salpa, Cagnoni etc might be a good reason why . Also reeds claimed as made from the finest swedish blue steel always resonates well with those who search for instruments of a higher quality . I`ve never read or known anyone specifically looking for an accordion with German reeds.
Hand made reeds from an Italian accordion usually bring top dollar vs Hohner, Weltmeister, or other German made reeds.
That all said and in fairness I`ve not heard anything negative said about German made reeds either.

 

[Morne]

Thanks for everyone's comments and insights.

I don't know if much German reeds are currently being made besides for very specific things, like Helikon. So when I think quality German reeds I probably think more around the 1950/1960's as that's when, for example, Hohner started using Italian reeds in their top models (from what I know so far). After that I assume they pretty much only used their own reeds in their mid and low end models. I don't know what they started using when they started moving production to China. I think this is part of why we might not really find people nowadays asking specifically for German reeds as there probably isn't such a thing on a professional level (for accordions, I know very little about diatonics/melodeons/etc.). I am also not too sure about the origin of the old East German top models, but I assume they made their own too at the time.

One reason I can see for why people might say German reeds are worse is because there's probably a much larger bulk of lower end German accordions in circulation compared to lower end Italian models. The interesting thing with some Hohner reeds is that they have used the exact same reeds in some Atlantics and Morinos (long ago, probably early 1950's). The difference in the quality had to do with the hand finishing and not that one model had a better reed per se. So even here I can see there being more of the lower end models around and hence a greater representation of the less refined reeds.

Which leads me to the next point about the reed's sound in relation to the genre of music. I agree, a lot of the sound and performance depends on what you're going to play. There's no point in being obsessed with handmade reeds inside a cassotto if you're going to play raucous folk music in places where concert-level instruments will sound dead (and might even choke on dust due to sensitive clearances). So I think the other main reason for somebody saying that German reeds are inferior is when they are incorrectly trying to project a kind of music that is played with an Italian sound onto an instrument that was never meant for it.

I will post a new topic later where we can discuss Hohner reeds in specific (different kinds, years in use, etc.) if anyone is interested.

 

[JerryPH]

I will post a new topic later where we can discuss Hohner reeds in specific (different kinds, years in use, etc.) if anyone is interested.

You know I would be eagerly reading *that* thread! :ch

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Hi Morne,

I have just re-read your comments about "raucous folk music" and dusty conditions affecting better accordions, and hope that this was intended only for the sake of emphasis.

Whilst I freely accept that folk music can be lively, I find the word "raucous" to be a little pejorative. I have been involved with numerous Folk Clubs since the 1960's, and have yet to find one where the conditions could be described as dusty.

If you ever visit England, you have an open invitation to visit our Folk Club. You would be made most welcome, especially if you could knock out a few "raucous" tunes. If, at the end of the evening, you aren't wearing a smile from ear to ear, I will pay for all your beer.

Cheers,

Stephen Hawkins.

 

[Morne]

Hi Stephen. Now that you point it out, my comment does seem a bit negative, but I can assure you that it was in no way meant to denigrate folk music. A lot of what I am learning is based on traditional music (albeit of the Russian and not the English kind). My point, although admittedly clumsily made, was about worrying about the quality and finish of the reeds beyond what is needed for a certain kind of music.

Just to clarify what I had in mind when I used the terms "raucous" and "dusty": I was thinking specifically in terms of dynamics and reed finish. Classical accordion often relies much more on dynamics and quick reed responses. As a result of the reed adjustments to achieve that, you have the trade-off that the reeds are also more sensitive to foreign particles. Accordion-based folk music often has only two volume levels: loud and not playing . And it often accompanies dancing, which is likely to kick up a bit more dust and particles than a seated audience in a concert hall (although maybe this is still hyperbole).

Also, regarding "better accordions": up to a point you can say an accordion is better as long as it reacts better for the same thing. But I wouldn't say a handmade, cassotto, concert instrument is absolutely better than a lower-end or simpler accordion if you're not going to use it for the same thing. So, here again, I didn't mean to imply a relationship between the quality of the music and the instrument.

As for your offer, mind if I leave the smiling till after the beer then (due to the bad exchange rate)?

Edit:
This post probably still looks a bit like it's stereotyping, but I think you will get the idea.

 

[donn]

To look at "better" another way, it might help to consider the diatonic side of the family. I'm acquainted with a gentleman who plays a couple such, Basque and Louisiana Cajun music and maybe more, and happened to be on hand when his new custom reed set came in and he installed it. I believe this was already a fairly fine instrument, but the new reeds (bass reeds if I remember right) were clearly better.

German? I wouldn't guess, but no idea. I know the diatonic players around here often see fit to pay a rather stiff price for their instruments, but I think they would laugh at the idea that there's some distinctive Teutonic character in reeds. It's about high end reed manufacture. When that happens to be in Italy, they will be in that sense Italian reeds, but that doesn't make them love opera etc., nor will two different Italian makes necessarily sound anything like each other.

 

[Morne]

Just to add another thing. It might look like I'm saying folk accordions wouldn't benefit from higher quality reeds or finishing, but that's not the case. It's just that you can probably get away with more in non-classical settings.

Like the diatonics Donn mentioned, there is also a quality jump in the Russian garmon. You have the "factory" class on the one side and the "handmade" class on the other. The bulk out there are mass produced, nowadays often with plastic reed blocks. In most cases these are and sound perfectly fine. Then you get that step up where there is much more hand finishing and possibly better metal involved. These better ones sometimes have the multi reed plates. Going further you get to the handmade type where they are of an even better quality and nearly always have the multi reed plates. You can distinguish these old-style quality instruments by the presence of external latch-like things that is used to split the body. Now I can tell the difference between a really busted garmon, where there is clear wheezing an so on, from a new cheap instrument. But to me the biggest difference between the quality levels has to do with the sound. The better instruments usually have a nicer sound and tend to be beefier and less shrill. I really cannot tell how much the finishing affects the responsiveness of the reeds when there is singing and dancing involved.

As for a Germanic character: I don't know if the Germans, or Hohner in specific, used exactly the same metal as the Italians. For example, if the Hohner reeds tended to use a slightly different mix then you could possibly say that would lead to a more Germanic sound - not because there is anything inherently Germanic about it, but because that's what they used and ended up being associated with (assuming that metal difference affects the sound).

Or the difference could be in how the different areas typically went about cutting and finishing the reeds. If there was a characteristic way that was passed down between generations at the factories then that might also have lead to a more Germanic sound. One example would be whether the reeds had the exact same profile. I have read a few times on a German music forum where users refer to their Hohners as buzzsaws - lovingly, of course.

Most likely any Germanic character would rather result from the entire instrument as a whole as opposed to just an isolated reed.

Ultimately, to me, this is a more historic discussion as I am not sure what exactly still counts as modern German reeds.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Morne,

You are quite right about folk music not really requiring the same level of perfection as other musical genres, and I was only mildly teasing you. The fact of the matter is that, in most cases, the instrument is secondary to the voice. My own singing voice is a Basso Profundo, which pretty well drowns out most instruments anyway.

My little Galotta provides decent accompaniment for my singing, having a very rich Bass register. I have recently been offered a 72 Bass Chanson, which is currently under consideration. The man who has owned it from new has hardly ever used it, as he also owns a very expensive Italian accordion.

I know the purists will be sticking pins in effigy's of me, but I honestly can't find a thing wrong with the Chanson. As to the origins of its reeds and other internals, I don't have a clue. I am the only accordionist at our Folk Club, making it quite impossible for the other members to compare my instruments (or my playing of them) to any others.

Okay, I'll buy you a couple of beers when you visit. (out of my meagre pension)

Cheers,

Stephen Hawkins.

 

[KLR]

I read how some Cape Breton fiddlers in the old days may have contracted tuberculosis from playing in dusty schoolhalls, that's about the only instance of dirt being a factor in English speaking folk music, really. An accordion tech suggested to me that the reason the Scottish and Irish like such wet tremolo on their accordions is owing to salt water in the air corroding things, thus leading to very out of tune accordions, which became the sound, which is an interesting notion.

There are no shortage of folk accordionists spending tons of cash on instruments, including being finicky about reeds. I passed up Tipo a mano and cassoto on my new button box, albeit it was built by a company (Manfrini) that was known for its PAs/CBAs before delving into diatonics.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

KLR,

A map of the British Isles is all that is necessary to dispel the myth favoured by your accordion tech, as there are a greater proportion of English & Welsh people living near to the sea than there are Irish or Scottish. I suggest that tradition alone has determined the tuning of Irish and Scottish instruments and, like kilts, this tradition pretty well ends at the English border.

All The Best,

Stephen Hawkins.