Why ,oh why, do we need 80 plus basses ?

[jarvo]

So, Donn's point is that extra bass buttons make no huge odds weight wise...but equally to have a 120 bass increases the keyboard size with attendant extra reeds....

so because we do tend to measure these boxes by their number of bass buttons, I will rephrase the question......why do we need more than 36 black and white keys on the right hand side.....given that 72 bass buttons are the optimum........I am not bothered about voices, couplers etc....it is the bass button and keyboard I am wondering about.

Perhaps I am not clear as to my musings and have given the impression that I disapprove of anything bigger than 72 bass.....not at all....just that if they had not been built then given the facilities that the 72 box has, I propose that you could still play anything that a larger box could....but with a bit of a need to work out some jumps..........

 

[Glenn]

Question:Why does a piano have more than 3 octaves when you can probably play any tune by sticking arund middle C?
Answer: because you can.

The lower and higher pitched strings sound beautiuful and you can therefore have more "voicings", to use an accordion term.

The same principle works for accordions.
A free reed instrument has a more limited range than a piano but if it sounds good, there are people that want it.
If money were no object we would all have a large collection of accordions, each made for a specific musical task.
The bigger, 120 bass instruments allows us to hedge our bets.

 

[george garside]

''why, oh why, do we need 80 plus bases?'' The simple answer is ''we don't need 80 or more basses''

But it is of course perfectly reasonable to say that some players PREFER 80 or more basses in just the same way as some players PREFER a smaller number of basses.

Sayng that we ''need'' 80 plus basses is somehow inferring that those with less than that number can't do the job properly and that is both wrong and misleading. Its rather like saying you need a 6 speed gearbox when clearly no one does although some may find it preferable whilst others may see having an extra gear to change as being a pain in the arse!



george

 

[Matt Butcher]

I've been thinking about it, I'm sure it's about history as lots of people have suggested. I've got quite a few recordings of Pietro Deiro and they start before the first world war when the stradella was coming in. He was a big star, packed out music halls and concert halls with thousands of people, playing to a "popular" audience more than a posh classical one. He played a real mix of stuff but back then he played a lot of "ethnic" music, classical music including heavyweight stuff, ragtime, pop songs. The classical, ragtime and pop songs of the day had a lot of complex harmonies (well by my standards), key changes, going into different octaves etc.: I guess that was what oeole were into then. So if someone like that was the popular role model, you can see why people went for instruments that worked with that kind of music. And know we're maybe in a time where different things are priorities.

(I've got a feeling some of the jumps would be very challenging, if you were trying to play in some way out key - not that I'm ever going to find out!)

But if you are into making a range of sounds, a big range on the treble side is, not at all necessary, but it has it's uses. Back to the history, around the time I reached being an adult, a lot of the music around had no "jolly tunes" whatsoever, but lots of new sounds.

You're right though, none of these luxuries are needed to enjoy playing, or to play good music and play it well. (I still don't fancy twelve-button jumps on the left hand from one bar to the next, but it probably wouldn't happen to me very often.)

 

[jarvo]

Question:Why does a piano have more than 3 octaves when you can probably play any tune by sticking arund middle C?
Answer: because you can.

The lower and higher pitched strings sound beautiuful and you can therefore have more voicings, to use an accordion term.

The same principle works for accordions.
A free reed instrument has a more limited range than a piano but if it sounds good, there are people that want it.
If money were no object we would all have a large collection of accordions, each made for a specific musical task.
The bigger, 120 bass instruments allows us to hedge our bets.

Piano ...more than 3 octaves...fair point, well made....I have a keyboard with only 62 or 63 keys ....just lately I literally fall off the end learning to play Maple Leaf Rag the run from low to top A in the first and second parts...and some new jazz improvs ....damn that Jazz Club....got to get a bigger piano :lol:

However Accordions take the low bass octaves and put them into a compact Stradella System ..taking care of the low end ...so you have about two or three octaves on the keyboard with 34 ish keys...and the PA is a portable compromise....so take it to the other extreme...why stop at 120 bass 40 odd keys :roll:

George says:

<HIGHLIGHT highlight=#bfffff>[highlight=#bfffff]why, oh why, do we need 80 plus bases? The simple answer is we dont need 80 or more basses

But it is of course perfectly reasonable to say that some players PREFER 80 or more basses in just the same way as some players PREFER a smaller number of basses.

Sayng that we need 80 plus basses is somehow inferring that those with less than that number cant do the job properly and that is both wrong and misleading. Its rather like saying you need a 6 speed gearbox when clearly no one does although some may find it preferable whilst others may see having an extra gear to change as being a pain in the arse![/highlight]</HIGHLIGHT>
Interesting points and I agree...I personally get a bit put out when dealers and others describe 120 basses as Professional machines, inference being that less is , well somehow inferior and that you are only messing about until you hit that magic number....which is evidently not true.....

Matt Butcher says:

<HIGHLIGHT highlight=#bfffff>[highlight=#bfffff]Ive got quite a few recordings of Pietro Deiro and they start before the first world war when the stradella was coming in. He was a big star, packed out music halls and concert halls with thousands of people, playing to a popular audience more than a posh classical one. He played a real mix of stuff but back then he played a lot of ethnic music, classical music including heavyweight stuff, ragtime, pop songs. The classical, ragtime and pop songs of the day had a lot of complex harmonies (well by my standards), key changes, going into different octaves etc.: I guess that was what oeole were into then. So if someone like that was the popular role model, you can see why people went for instruments that worked with that kind of music. And know were maybe in a time where different things are priorities.[/highlight]</HIGHLIGHT>

A bit like certain rock stars did great things for Fender Stratocasters......etc.

Interesting and entertaining :tup: :ch

 

[donn]

I personally get a bit put out when dealers and others describe 120 basses as Professional machines, inference being that less is , well somehow inferior and that you are only messing about until you hit that magic number....which is evidently not true.

Dont be put out, if someone implies you might not be a professional accordion player - its a compliment.

 

[jarvo]

Oh boy....I is not even a amertewer ackordeen player.....but I get your drift....I just love threatening people with it... .

 

[Glenn]

I personally get a bit put out when dealers and others describe 120 basses as Professional machines, inference being that less is , well somehow inferior and that you are only messing about until you hit that magic number....which is evidently not true.

Dont be put out, if someone implies you might not be a professional accordion player - its a compliment.[/quote]
Indead, dont be put out Jarvo. The hint is in the word dealer. The 120 bass machines cost more, which means more commission and/or profit for the dealer. They are only human.

 

[george garside]

Probably/possibly true about dealers , particularly those who cater for the ''classical'' trade. does not seem to apply to the folk music dealers eg hobgoblin and the music room (and others) who generally seem to prefer to fit somebody out with a box to suite their individual needs rather than the 120 is proper syndrome.

Sadly I have had so many people come to me for tuition struggling even to carry the 120 bass box they have been 'advised or encouraged' to buy when as would be 'jollytunists' 48 or at the most 72 bass will meet all their needs. I let them try a 48 and its surprising how many say something on the lines of 'that's what I should have bought'- problem then is finding another mug to unload the 120 bass box onto!

george :evil:

ps Sir Jimmy Shand made many recordings on 36 bass and later 60 bass hohner l'organola button boxes and apart from the Gola hohner made specialy for him, and which he was not at all keen on, he never played 120 basses although he did get near with 117!

 

[Pippa]

120 boxes to my reckoning ,reading the comments all over this forum are a bit like huge V8 American muscle cars,they look fantastic, sound great but wont go round corners and drink fuel ......120 boxes are easier to use in the stradella..have a bigger keyboard..but are heavy and cause injuries........(so they are yobboes as well then!)

What, 120 bass isnt heavier? Well, a couple ounces, Ill grant. Not a pound or anything like a kilogram.

How could this be? Are you ready ... here it comes ... 120 bass accordions are heavier, mainly because they have more keys on the treble side. And therefore more reeds. A bigger reed block, with more reeds, weighs significantly more.

A few more rods and buttons on the bass side is not so heavy, and thats all it is -- there are no extra reeds, just because you have 120 buttons.[/quote]

This is really interesting Donn - obvious now you point it out, but something I hadnt considered! Do they make 120 basses with smaller keyboards, that dont weigh so much? (Where can I get one!??!)

Agree with everyone else, that it really depends on the sort of music you want to play. A lot of the tunes I want to play are in funny keys that require going up the dusty end, although Ive never needed anything below the E flat so I would be quite happy to get a box that cut off at that point, but went all the way up to G#!

 

[george garside]

I suppose I regularly play stuff in G# but always think of it as being Ab down at the bottom end which is easily done on a 12x4 48 bass box

george

 

[Glenn]

Agree with everyone else, that it really depends on the sort of music you want to play. A lot of the tunes I want to play are in funny keys that require going up the dusty end, although Ive never needed anything below the E flat so I would be quite happy to get a box that cut off at that point, but went all the way up to G#!

Pippa, I bet your bottom dollar that an Ab is on the horizon.
I use it quite often and as it is one of the marked buttons makes a very good reference for me when playing down there.
Below Ab is however rare for me.
Anyway, I thought that we had agreed that adding the extra buttons does not add much weight.
The reed sets are all in place and it is just extra linkages that activate them.
Thus a whacking great keyboard and 72 buttons will not be much different to a whacking great keyboard and 96/120 button.

By the way, if you are buying second-hand from a dealer, could you not agree that if you are not happy with the accordion after a few months that you exchange it for the buying price for a different model?

 

[JIM D.]

Glenn your absolutely correct. In all Stradella bass accordions the reed sets are in place. There is really little weight advantage to reducing the number of buttons as the linkage eliminated is mostly aluminum parts. The only real advantage of less linkage is to the maker as money is saved parts and labor in production. Accordions with less than 120 basses are a dis-advantage to the player as the full use of the stradella design is restricted. JIM D.

 

[Pippa]

I suppose I regularly play stuff in G# but always think of it as being Ab down at the bottom end which is easily done on a 12x4 48 bass box

george

I guess it does come down to the big jumps then!

 

[JIM D.]

A 120 bass machine provides you with duplicate notes on the top and bottom of the 120 layout and results in LESS jumps. JIM D.

 

[jarvo]

Which is all the question that I ever posed in the beginning..........

Less buttons ..more jumps , job done ...had I invented the Stradella we would all be hopping over it like Mexican jumping beans 'cos I would have said

"Aye 72 buttons all in a row of 12 x 6...it's all there ..that'll do ".....but they went on and on and ariston .............. :roll:

 

[simonking]

Just thought I'd throw in my answer to the original question - it just makes the bass keyboard easier and more logical! For example moving from the F# column (which would be the uppermost on jarvo's pataneted 72 bass "Optimatic" instrument!) to C#, G#, D# or A# would result in an 11, 10, 9 or 8-row jump. Some of these may prove impossible in the time required. Likewise from Db at the bottom you may have to jump up to 11 rows. On a 120 bass, the furthest you will ever have to jump (unless perhaps the fingering gets awkward) is 7 rows away.

Secondly, using common chords and bass patterns to provide a simple accompaniment, the repeated rows allow you to play these same patterns in ANY key.

The music may move through many keys in the same piece, and whether it's easiest to use the repeated rows at the top or bottom depends on how you get there.

A smaller keyboard on its own is just a subset of a bigger one, and since you have to feel your way around anyway, it is no more complicated - you only 'see' the buttons when your fingers go there! As has been pointed out, a bigger bass board on its own adds no significant weight.

In summary a 120-bass instrument is the best allround general-purpose choice if you want to be able to play any music and interesting arrangments that you may come across. Sizes smaller than this, I would consider specialist instruments, and compromise flexibilty for smaller general size, weight and portability.

 

[george garside]

there are a considerable number of piano accordion players who have absolutely no need for a 120 bass instrument as they have no desire whatsoever to play tunes in multiple keys resulting in 11 or whatever jumps, they are unlikely to go much below F or higher than A . They do however have a habit of joining with other players in pub sessions, folk festivals, ceilidh bands most of the playing being in A<D and G. To them, portability and hence light weight is paramount as they may well carry the box in a backpack anad they are aware that it is very unsociable to plonk a huge wheeled case on a seat thus depriving someones bum of its rightful place.

So ''in summery'' a 120bass instrument is far from being the best all round general purpose choice and for many it has severe disadvantages. They are 'proper accordionists' and smaller boxes are every bit as much 'proper accordions'' as are the 120 bass veriety which may well be the best all round instrument for SOME players.

boxes and there players come in many verieties and the increasingly dogmatic insistence on 120 bass being 'best' correct' full sized, proper, necessary etc etc will not help the development of this forum as a generic home for all and any players of piano and other accordions

george

 

[donn]

"Increasingly dogmatic insistence?"

I have never seen anyone harp on this matter the way you have, frankly.

If you review what's been said in this thread so far, I think it would boil down to

• 72 or 80 is fine for my purposes
• I think I might need 120, or I know someone who does
• bass buttons don't really have much effect on weight! With obvious corollaries.

For me, if you really need 120 basses, you'll know. But otherwise, don't worry about the bass count - whether your accordion ends up having 72, 96, or 120 basses, you likely won't run out of bass notes, and the bass side of your accordion will in any case be lighter and smaller than the keyboard side.

 

[Soulsaver]

Assuming you meant less keys rather than a smaller keyboard, some of the modern makers make 37/120 fully featured PAs, but they'll be plenty of money 'cos they're newish - Borsini K9 for example.
And there are plenty of inexpensive 50/60/70s so called 'lady' models about with 41 narrower keys & 120 bass, smaller bellows & lighter weight.