Bugari non-converter vs converter sound

[Volodymyr]

Hi,

What are design and construction differences between Bugari high-end non-converter and converter models. I've heard that non-converter models can produce better Stradella bass sound compared with converter models that have to accommodate for both Stradella and free bass. Do non-converters actually have better Stradella bass sound? Some non-converter models have 5 voices in the right hand side (RHS). Do non-converter models with 5 voices in RHS produce better sound compared with converter models that have 4 voices in RHS? Leaving the free bass feature, which model produces better RHS and LHS Stradella sound a non-convertor or a convertor? Which model has better sound/price ratio?

I'm looking into these Bugari models following the pattern RHS notes/voices + registers, LHS basses/voices + registers

• Non-converter
  • 505/ARS 46/5 + 15, 120/5 + 7
• Converter
  • Selecta 64/4 + 15, 120/7 + 7
  • Nextra 61/4 + 15, 120/6 + 7

Thank you!

 

[JerryPH]

IMHO, differences will be more based on model than with/without Free Bass. I would think that 2 of the SAME MODEL one with and one without Free Bass would have equal quality Stradella bass sound.

Above you are comparing 3 different models.

 

[debra]

The issue that the Stradella bass on convertor models isn't "as good as" the non-convertor bass is a common problem with convertor accordions, and certainly not limited to Bugari. Still, the Stradella bass can be quite good, especially on convertor instruments with 16-8 (or 16-8-4) configuration and not 16-16 (or 16-16-4).
By coincidence I have actually owned and played a Bugari 505/ARS for a few years. Like many Italian non-convertor accordions the lowest bass note is A. That holds for the lowest two reed banks. The middle reed bank has the octave jump in a different place and the highest two reed banks have the jump in yet another place. By varying where the octave jump is the "full" bass register to some extent hides the octave jump more or less. (It does not quite achieve "Shepard tone" but it's an approximation of that idea.
These convertor instruments (Selecta, Nextra, etc.) all have the E as the lowest bass note. They have one or two octave couplers to give a full sound in the base notes. (The octave couplers have no effect on the chords.)
Before switching to button accordion I had a Bugari 285/ARS (that's the PA version of the 505/ARS button accordion). Later I got the 289/ARS/C5 which is the convertor equivalent (it has 45 notes instead of 41 and a bit larger case). I can definitely say that the convertor version of the same model does NOT give you the same Stradella bass. (Sorry Jerry but in this case you got it wrong.)
I also have a Bugari 508/ARS/C with convertor and can also confirm that this does NOT have the same Stradella sound as the 508/ARS without convertor.
But... that said these Bugari accordions with convertor have a Stradella bass I like more than the non-convertor models because I like that the lowest note is E. The only disappointing convertor accordions in Stradella bass are the ones with 16-16 bass. Those with 16-8 sound just fine.

 

[Volodymyr]

The only disappointing convertor accordions in Stradella bass are the ones with 16-16 bass

Why? Till now I was thinking that 16-16 or 16-16-4 models will give stronger bass and that is what is expected from a good bass.

 

[JerryPH]

(Sorry Jerry but in this case you got it wrong.)

Wouldn't be the first or last time... lol
I was basing my experience on playing a Morino with and without MIII Free Bass. Definitely not a converter and definitely no drop in quality on either side, but it is still surprising to me.

 

[debra]

Wouldn't be the first or last time... lol
I was basing my experience on playing a Morino with and without MIII Free Bass. Definitely not a converter and definitely no drop in quality on either side, but it is still surprising to me.

Also on the Morino the Stradella bass is not the same. The ones without melody bass (N and S series) have a 5-voice bass. (Note that the M series has just a 4 voice bass.) Because of the construction of the melody bass all notes are LM, possibly in different octaves. So in the Stradella bass when you use the "master" every note that plays (base notes and in chords) can only open pallets that give you 2 voices. So the bass can have 4 or 6 voices, but not 5.
The Morino (N and S) have another really interesting thing: The standard bass goes from E up to Eb in every octave. That means that the highest two notes that play in the standard bass are a D and Eb, but these two notes are not present in the melody bass. So the melody bass could have had 60 notes instead of 58, but there are no melody bass buttons for the highest two notes. I know of no other accordions that have melody bass and have reeds that only play in the standard bass and not in the melody bass.
You'd be forgiven for not knowing this. I have encountered such Morinos (VI N) where the highest two notes (D and Eb) are more out of tune than other notes because a previous repairer who tuned the accordion tuned the 58 melody bass notes and forgot about the two notes that only play in standard bass...

 

[JerryPH]

Also on the Morino the Stradella bass is not the same.

Cannot be a huge sonic difference, because they sounded pretty much identical to me playing both a couple minutes apart, not that I was specifically testing for just that difference, I was just enjoying another Morino... but still.

 

[debra]

Cannot be a huge sonic difference, because they sounded pretty much identical to me playing both a couple minutes apart, not that I was specifically testing for just that difference, I was just enjoying another Morino... but still.

Your Morino VI N has a lever on the side that disables the highest octave. (The highest notes on MIII then do not play.) The Stradella bass will then sound pretty much like a Morino without MIII. Most people have that highest octave always disabled because when it's enabled the Stradella bass sounds too sharp. (It has notes that are an octave higher than what a Morino IV or V has.)
My suspicion is thus that when these accordions sounded pretty much identical you must have had that switch in the "off" position on the VI.

 

[JerryPH]

That also disables the highest octave of the Free Bass, and generally speaking I love/prefer to have it on... but that day it wasn't my VI N... I suspect you are right.

 

[Ventura]

so is there a significant amount more of the mechanism in one
vs: the other that all the sound has to travel through to get out ?

 

[petch]

Why? Till now I was thinking that 16-16 or 16-16-4 models will give stronger bass and that is what is expected from a good bass.

I'm not sure which is better but I actually prefer the 16-16 stradella sound over 16-8 and even a lot of standard bass accordions. It has a nice deep, rounded sound. I was very jealous of the 16-16 sound of my teacher's accordion and when I went to try a used converter accordion I was interested in it happened to be 16-16 and I fell in love with it!

I think the best option is to hear some in person and decide for yourself

and remember - you can always pick up a second hand standard, non-converter accordion quite cheaply if you end up with a 16-16 converter and really want the more typical stradella sound sometimes

 

[debra]

so is there a significant amount more of the mechanism in one
vs: the other that all the sound has to travel through to get out ?

There is a bit more mechanism, but most of it is next to what's there for Stradella, so I don't think there is much more the sound has to travel through. And the whole bass compartment is often also larger so it is a larger "chamber" in which the sound can resonate before coming our.

 

[debra]

I'm not sure which is better but I actually prefer the 16-16 stradella sound over 16-8 and even a lot of standard bass accordions. It has a nice deep, rounded sound. I was very jealous of the 16-16 sound of my teacher's accordion and when I went to try a used converter accordion I was interested in it happened to be 16-16 and I fell in love with it!

I think the best option is to hear some in person and decide for yourself

and remember - you can always pick up a second hand standard, non-converter accordion quite cheaply if you end up with a 16-16 converter and really want the more typical stradella sound sometimes

Which sound is "better" is a matter of personal preference, of course. What I am trying to say is that a convertor accordion with a 16-8 setup results in a Stradella bass sound that more closely resembles that of a non-convertor accordion than what you get with a 16-16 setup.
As I have convertor accordions with 16-8 and also one with 16-16 and I also still have a non-convertor accordion (which I rarely use as it is a piano accordion) I can easily compare the sounds. When I want a Stradella bass sound that most closely resembles that of a non-convertor accordion I use my Hohner Morino (Artiste X S). The deepest bass notes are less strong than on my Bugari accordions and the chords also sound better to my ears. But when I want a stronger and also nice sound the Bugari accordions are just fine. (And on my AKKO bayan with 16-16 bass setup the Stradella chords sound a bit "thin" because they do not combine two octaves like you get with 16-8.)

 

[Volodymyr]

The next question is still open: why does 505/ARS have 5 voices in RHS and only 5 voices in LHS, while Selecta has only 4 voices in RHS and 7 voices in LHS? Is it limitation of a construction or a 5/5 non-converter and 4/7 converter is the best voice combination for their respective categories?

 

[saundersbp]

and remember - you can always pick up a second hand standard, non-converter accordion quite cheaply if you end up with a 16-16 converter and really want the more typical stradella sound sometimes

I'd completely agree with @petch. I prefer the 16+16 bass sound in freebass mode to 16+8 (despite the increase in weight) but these are minutiae compared to how well the accordion is played and how good the acoustic you are playing in.

Which sound is "better" is a matter of personal preference, of course. What I am trying to say is that a convertor accordion with a 16-8 setup results in a Stradella bass sound that more closely resembles that of a non-convertor accordion than what you get with a 16-16 setup.

And I'd also completely agree with @debra . The point is essentially that there is no 'perfect' musical instrument for every possible genre and style. I've heard the nicest stradella sound on stradella only accordions, again its tedious geeky minutiae in the big picture of actual music making.

The next question is still open: why does 505/ARS have 5 voices in RHS and only 5 voices in LHS, while Selecta has only 4 voices in RHS and 7 voices in LHS? Is it limitation of a construction or a 5/5 non-converter and 4/7 converter is the best voice combination for their respective categories?

I've noticed a trend in very new model higher end accordions. Less silly register switches and just focusing on the combinations that really sound good rather than every possible permutation including the more ghastly combinations. A good example is the left hand side of the new Pigini Kyma. Despite my general preference for their main rival for the RHS sound, if I had your budget I'd be seriously tempted by a Kyma having heard a few, given I think these questions are essentially about a big purchase and the desire for brand new!

 

[petch]

The next question is still open: why does 505/ARS have 5 voices in RHS and only 5 voices in LHS, while Selecta has only 4 voices in RHS and 7 voices in LHS? Is it limitation of a construction or a 5/5 non-converter and 4/7 converter is the best voice combination for their respective categories?

Accordion makers tend to become very confusing in their specification of converter instruments

I believe the Selecta comes in either 16+16+4 or 16+8+4 configurations, so it's a 3 voice bass plus an octave coupler for the lowest 12 notes. For whatever reason they call this a 7 voice, rather than 3 voice... Presumably this is because because there are 4 'voices' (the 3 sets of reeds + 1 octave coupler) for the 12 bass notes and 3 'voices' for the chords for a total of 7 (though really it's just 3 banks of reeds)

 

[Volodymyr]

how good the acoustic you are playing in

What are the key characteristics of a good acoustic room? How these can be achieved? What are simple yet effective means/tricks to improve acoustic characteristics of a room e. g. empty walls or filled with shelves paintings, open or closed doors and windows, bigger or smaller room?

Would be very nice to have a video with comparison of 16+16 vs 16+8 bass.

Thank you!

 

[Tom]

What are the key characteristics of a good acoustic room? How these can be achieved? What are simple yet effective means/tricks to improve acoustic characteristics of a room e. g. empty walls or filled with shelves paintings, open or closed doors and windows, bigger or smaller room?

Would be very nice to have a video with comparison of 16+16 vs 16+8 bass.

Thank you!

I’m not making light of your question, Volodomyr, because it is a good one and I don’t know the answer. But imho, a good acoustic room is one where someone is playing an accordion, even better if someone else is also playing or singing!

 

[saundersbp]

What are the key characteristics of a good acoustic room? How these can be achieved? What are simple yet effective means/tricks to improve acoustic characteristics of a room e. g. empty walls or filled with shelves paintings, open or closed doors and windows, bigger or smaller room?

I personally like very hard reflective flat surfaces in a room. Cathedrals are pretty good, but you can make do with a church as long as there is no carpet or ladies in heavy fur coats. If for some reason you don't have either on your doorstep a tiled bathroom with a stone floor isn't bad!

The other thing is the pitch of the resonance. There are strange rooms where the pitch comes back sharp or flat at you on the surface reflection and that isn't nice. Same pitch reflection is obviously what you want!

I've yet to hear an artificial reverb that doesn't sound like an artificial reverb....

 

[John M]

I've yet to hear an artificial reverb that doesn't sound like an artificial reverb....

Trek II Products RV1-D is 3 spring reverb delay for the Hammond B3/C3. It is very realistic -- the best I have heard. It is better than Hammond's Fluid reverb, "Necklace" reverb, or any other manufacturer's digital reverb.