Bugari non-converter vs converter sound

[debra]

The next question is still open: why does 505/ARS have 5 voices in RHS and only 5 voices in LHS, while Selecta has only 4 voices in RHS and 7 voices in LHS? Is it limitation of a construction or a 5/5 non-converter and 4/7 converter is the best voice combination for their respective categories?

Almost all non-convertor Bugari accordions (except the smaller ones) have the same 5 voice LHS configuration. This gives you ample choice of registers, from high to low, and the fuller registers do not have bad sounding octave jumps. There are 5 reed banks (one whole octave each), with the lowest 2 playing only with the base notes and all 5 playing with the chords.
Convertor accordions have more difficulty in achieving good Stradella bass sound because it does not have the 5 reed banks. A standard one with 16-8 or 16-16 has only 2 reed banks (and a 16-8-4 or 16-16-4 nas 3 reed banks). To get many reeds to play in Stradella octave couplers have to be used to give you the notes from different octaves combined. This then implies that every piston has to open more pallets and thus requires more force to press.

 

[debra]

What are the key characteristics of a good acoustic room? How these can be achieved? What are simple yet effective means/tricks to improve acoustic characteristics of a room e. g. empty walls or filled with shelves paintings, open or closed doors and windows, bigger or smaller room?

Would be very nice to have a video with comparison of 16+16 vs 16+8 bass.

Thank you!

A good acoustic room is one of which *you* like the acoustics. There is a lot of science in designing concert halls that sound good, but throughout history there has been a lot of trial and error. For making recordings what matters is what the sound is like in the positions where you place your microphones. People who study studio and live recording techniques go through a very different learning process than use mere mortals who just learn how to play our instrument.
There are many churches with nice acoustic properties, but also a lot more with way too much echo and reverb, because of hard walls and enormous size.
I just make my recordings in my home office which isn't a dead room but pretty quiet. I add artificial reverb with the computer and it sounds... like pretty good artificial reverb. I do not have the time and money to rent a room (concert hall, church) with really good acoustics for every song I record, nor for the number of microphones and mixing devices needed.

 

[Ventura]

for me the ideal room has always been the one that absorbs all reflections and vibrations
and allows me to practice at concert volume levels without being visited by the police

my studio's always start with a layer of homosote flooring, or i have also used
thick rolls foam roofing (the kind they melt the seams together)
then tight weave carpet that allows for rolling equipment but is still thick
more homosote up the walls like a wainscoting, and foam above that plus
assorted curtains then acoustic ceiling with 8" of fibergass batts on tiop of them

i want to hear just the sound from my instruments, acoustically and amplified,
as it will project in the real world b'cuz i feel i need to know the true sound
so i can control it as best i can.. also because i like "the wall of sound" as taught
by Phil Spector when we were kids

 

[JerryPH]

What are the key characteristics of a good acoustic room? How these can be achieved? What are simple yet effective means/tricks to improve acoustic characteristics of a room e. g. empty walls or filled with shelves paintings, open or closed doors and windows, bigger or smaller room?

That is going to depend on what the goal is. Are you performing or recording?

A room for performing is going to be completely different from a room set up for recording.

For performances, you want a room that is "live", has some reverberations, focuses the full spectrum of sound towards the audience and if you are very lucky, you will also hear the sound bounce back towards you after hitting far walls. The result can be a warmth, mild echo where all the frequencies that the accordion makes can be experienced.

For recording room is completely the opposite. The room will be heavily acoustically treated and completely "dead" with no echo, no reverberations and no sound bouncing around. You want that because you want the microphones to capture the most miniscule of nuances that your accordion makes so that the sound engineer can post process the sound based on the requirements of the file/music/use.

Now, if someone says that they use $10,000 microphones and $100,000 sound consoles and do not need post process, thats an opinion that no professional sound engineer shares... ALL commercial/professional sound engineers post process EVERYTHING, be it a little or a lot. In a recording there is a lot that can be drawn out and extracted... a similar concept to what more high-end cameras do that shoot in RAW and need extensive processing to get the best final results.

 

[JerryPH]

for me the ideal room has always been the one that absorbs all reflections and vibrations
and allows me to practice at concert volume levels without being visited by the police

Sound control and acousitc control are 2 completely different concepts. Keeping sound inside a room can be easily done by double framing walls/floors/ceilings with multiple layers of plaster board connected via acoustic glue/silicone. No one would hear you screaming on the other side of the wall... but what a terrible environment to record in.

Ideally one wants both sound insulation and sound control. Doing it right now-a-days can be very expensive and any given room can shrink several feet each side if they get very serious with things.

Thankfully in "real life" you can get 80% of the results with 25% of the money if you are a bit lucky and plan things out.

My basement is a great location... first its not square but "L" shaped and my ceilings and walls are both double framed using double 5/8" gyprock with the "economy" version of acoustic glue and "safe and sound" (2 layers) as is the ceiling followed up by a dropped ceiling with a 2" air gap between the bottom layer of SafeAndSound and the top one. I have a 6" cement floor covered by industrial carpeting and when making a recording use "moving blankets to absorb as much as possible and eliminate echo/reverb. I am usually behind a green screen and that catches some sound that might bounce behind me. With everything down it is lightly "live" but with the moving blankets and green screens up, its like 80% dead. Keeping mics close to the sound source makes that small amount pretty much unheard in recordings. I can record with people stomping around upstairs above me and nothing comes through.

I do have ONE issue... an air conditioning duct right above where I sit with the accordion and the main unit about 15 feet to my right behind an insulated wall so if I am making important acoustic recordings, the AC or heat gets turned off for a short while. I can live with that one compromise. This year we changed our entire HVAC unit and the new one is thankfully a lot quieter, but picky listeners will hear it if I don't remove it in post (which can affect recording quality, so turning it off is easier).

 

[JerryPH]

There are many churches with nice acoustic properties

I know it is personal preference, but I LOVE the sound of a church! Haven't found one that I did not like... lol

 

[debra]

I know it is personal preference, but I LOVE the sound of a church! Haven't found one that I did not like... lol

Some churches are simply very large and will reverberate the sound for way too long. The term "cathedral" comes to mind... In such a church you can essentially only play very slow pieces of music, otherwise you just get a terrible mess of all notes sounding together.
Sadly I have played in a number of concerts that were not enjoyable for anyone because of way too much (and long) echo and reverb.

 

[Volodymyr]

Given the above discussion it results that converter bass has 2 or 3 voices in reality

• Non-converter Bugari
  • 505/ARS 46/5 + 15, 120/5 + 7
• Converter Bugari
  • Selecta 64/4 + 15, 120/3 + 7
  • Nextra 61/4 + 15, 120/2 + 7

Taking into consideration that a high-end non-converter price is almost a half of a high-end converter price, if one is only interested in Stradella bass, would it be better (sound quality/price relation) to focus on a non-converter wiht 5 voices bass rather than a converter with 2-3 voices bass?

High-end non-onverter models from Bugari and Pigini (as per their catalogs)

• Bugari. Why the RHS range is quite small? What is the difference between the two models? Which has more battle tested design? Does Bugari have a non-converter with a wider range?
  • 505/ARS 46/5 + 15, 120/5 + 7
  • 505/Gold or Silver Plus 46/5 + 15, 120/5 + 7
• Pigini. Is Variete better than 505/ARS because of a much wider RHS range? Are Variete or Super King comparable to 505/ARS in terms of sound quality and build?
  • Super Variete 55/4 + 13, 117/5 + 5
  • Super King 46/4 + 15, 120/5 + 7

 

[debra]

Given the above discussion it results that converter bass has 2 or 3 voices in reality

• Non-converter Bugari
  • 505/ARS 46/5 + 15, 120/5 + 7
• Converter Bugari
  • Selecta 64/4 + 15, 120/3 + 7
  • Nextra 61/4 + 15, 120/2 + 7

Taking into consideration that a high-end non-converter price is almost a half of a high-end converter price, if one is only interested in Stradella bass, would it be better (sound quality/price relation) to focus on a non-converter wiht 5 voices bass rather than a converter with 2-3 voices bass?

High-end non-onverter models from Bugari and Pigini (as per their catalogs)

• Bugari. Why the RHS range is quite small? What is the difference between the two models? Which has more battle tested design? Does Bugari have a non-converter with a wider range?
  • 505/ARS 46/5 + 15, 120/5 + 7
  • 505/Gold or Silver Plus 46/5 + 15, 120/5 + 7
• Pigini. Is Variete better than 505/ARS because of a much wider RHS range? Are Variete or Super King comparable to 505/ARS in terms of sound quality and build?
  • Super Variete 55/4 + 13, 117/5 + 5
  • Super King 46/4 + 15, 120/5 + 7

Non-convertor accordions have a standard RHS range of 46 notes (E to C#). Each brand also offers a "French" line of accordions with more notes. You found the Pigini Variete with 55 notes. Bugari has the more conventional range of 52 notes in its French model 815/FR.
Internally the main difference between the standard accordions and the French ones is that the standard ones come with 2 reed blocks in cassotto and 2 outside and the French line haws 3 blocks in cassotto and 3 blocks outside. By dividing the notes over 3+3 reed blocks the accordion becomes less tall (in the playing orientation) but a bit deeper.
With the convertor accordions Bugari has a 508/ARS/C (not listed in their catalog) which has 46 notes, cassotto and 55 notes in the convertor. The most recent generation I saw was just like the 508/ARS but with convertor added on the left-hand side. Earlier (say 15 years ago) the 508/ARS/C was a different, somewhat more compact accordion. It may just be about a 2cm difference, but in reality it makes all the difference. It also has the keyboard just a bit further away from the player's body than the standard 508/ARS. That too makes a difference. (I have one of these older 508/ARS/C accordions. It's a gem!)
Now the crux of the issue... The main difficulty in making accordions with cassotto is to insure that the reed blocks in cassotto all produce more or less the same sound, although the reed blocks are not all equally deep inside the cassotto. With an accordion with 2+2 setup (2 blocks in cassotto) both blocks in cassotto can be deep enough to both produce a good sound, although when you pay attention you will notice a small difference in the 8-foot register. The accordions with more notes (Selecta, Nextra, Prime, ...) all have a 3+3 setup, with 3 blocks in cassotto. There isn't enough room to fit everything as well inside the cassotto. These accordions, in the 8-foot register, all struggle to produce the same "timbre", especially when you compare the sound of the first row of buttons (deepest in cassotto) and the third row of buttons (closest to the "exit" of the cassotto). I'd say that when comparing and selecting an accordion to buy that has many notes the most important thing to do is to listen carefully to the sound of the 8-foot register, and especially the sound of the first and the third row of buttons. When earlier I said that I was impressed by the Beltuna Paris IV this was the most impressive point: the same sound across the range, on the 8-foot register.

 

[saundersbp]

The term "cathedral" comes to mind... In such a church you can essentially only play very slow pieces of music, otherwise you just get a terrible mess of all notes sounding together.

A popular misconception, it's all about phrasing and musicianship.

 

[debra]

A popular misconception, it's all about phrasing and musicianship.

Here is an example of what I mean: https://www.de-bra.nl/muziek/duo-concerto-1.mp3.
This wasn't a cathedral, but a fairly large church. With this much and strong reverb the melody drowns in the echo of previous notes.
The bass is still more or less OK (that was me playing), but the rest is not very enjoyable.
We have played in venues that were a lot worse still, but didn't make recordings.

 

[saundersbp]

The bass is still more or less OK (that was me playing), but the rest is not very enjoyable.

You are too hard on yourself, the Bach sounds OK.
If you play a lot in big acoustics you learn how to make big phrasing shapes that flow in the building and to shape the cadences better, you adapt the sound to the place and you always keep your ears with the audience not on your own instrument. It's important not to sound metronomically dead in Bach especially.

Here is an example on another wind instrument recorded live by an amateur engineer at great distance in one of the Netherlands largest Cathedrals.

 

[JerryPH]

The audience location will make a huge difference in terms of what they hear. The guy standing at the back of the church is going to get a mess of reverb and echo... most audiences are seated much closer to the player and get a very different experience.

I don't know who recorded that MP3 for you Paul... but they were unfortunately too far from you when recording.

 

[JerryPH]

@saundersbp - You may need to change the rights... I had to request rights and wait for you to approve before I will be able to hear it.

 

[Volodymyr]

Non-convertor accordions have a standard RHS range of 46 notes (E to C#). Each brand also offers a "French" line of accordions with more notes. You found the Pigini Variete with 55 notes. Bugari has the more conventional range of 52 notes in its French model 815/FR.
Internally the main difference between the standard accordions and the French ones is that the standard ones come with 2 reed blocks in cassotto and 2 outside and the French line haws 3 blocks in cassotto and 3 blocks outside. By dividing the notes over 3+3 reed blocks the accordion becomes less tall (in the playing orientation) but a bit deeper.
With the convertor accordions Bugari has a 508/ARS/C (not listed in their catalog) which has 46 notes, cassotto and 55 notes in the convertor. The most recent generation I saw was just like the 508/ARS but with convertor added on the left-hand side. Earlier (say 15 years ago) the 508/ARS/C was a different, somewhat more compact accordion. It may just be about a 2cm difference, but in reality it makes all the difference. It also has the keyboard just a bit further away from the player's body than the standard 508/ARS. That too makes a difference. (I have one of these older 508/ARS/C accordions. It's a gem!)
Now the crux of the issue... The main difficulty in making accordions with cassotto is to insure that the reed blocks in cassotto all produce more or less the same sound, although the reed blocks are not all equally deep inside the cassotto. With an accordion with 2+2 setup (2 blocks in cassotto) both blocks in cassotto can be deep enough to both produce a good sound, although when you pay attention you will notice a small difference in the 8-foot register. The accordions with more notes (Selecta, Nextra, Prime, ...) all have a 3+3 setup, with 3 blocks in cassotto. There isn't enough room to fit everything as well inside the cassotto. These accordions, in the 8-foot register, all struggle to produce the same "timbre", especially when you compare the sound of the first row of buttons (deepest in cassotto) and the third row of buttons (closest to the "exit" of the cassotto). I'd say that when comparing and selecting an accordion to buy that has many notes the most important thing to do is to listen carefully to the sound of the 8-foot register, and especially the sound of the first and the third row of buttons. When earlier I said that I was impressed by the Beltuna Paris IV this was the most impressive point: the same sound across the range, on the 8-foot register.

Is it accurate to conclude that a standard non-converter according has a reduced range of 46 notes E to C sharp because 46 is the maximum number of notes for which there is enough space in casotto to correclty place all required reed blocks that have to go in cassotto in order produce equal sound in all registers (and no more notes can be added without sacrifycing the equality of sound)?

 

[saundersbp]

You may need to change the rights... I had to request rights and wait for you to approve before I will be able to hear it

Yinks, this is beyond me, I think it was a wav file so too big.

Forget st bavos, here's one in another cathedral equally big space as mp3.

 

[saundersbp]

Taking into consideration that a high-end non-converter price is almost a half of a high-end converter price, if one is only interested in Stradella bass, would it be better (sound quality/price relation) to focus on a non-converter wiht 5 voices bass rather than a converter with 2-3 voices bass?

Having spoken and having some idea of your musical ambitions I think a non freebass accordion will bore you daft after a few months!

 

[debra]

The audience location will make a huge difference in terms of what they hear. The guy standing at the back of the church is going to get a mess of reverb and echo... most audiences are seated much closer to the player and get a very different experience.

I don't know who recorded that MP3 for you Paul... but they were unfortunately too far from you when recording.

True: the recording device was too far away. But then... it is very representative of what the audience was hearing.
I have made other recordings with the mics close to the players and then more mics further away to capture the reverb in a more controlled way. You can make good recordings in a very large church. But my example recording shows what the audience hears. This one isn't yet so bad but we have also played in churches where it was just not fun for the audience because they mostly heard all the notes coming echoed from different directions, forming one big noisy mess.

 

[Sebastian Bravo]

Your Morino VI N has a lever on the side that disables the highest octave. (The highest notes on MIII then do not play.) The Stradella bass will then sound pretty much like a Morino without MIII. Most people have that highest octave always disabled because when it's enabled the Stradella bass sounds too sharp. (It has notes that are an octave higher than what a Morino IV or V has.)
My suspicion is thus that when these accordions sounded pretty much identical you must have had that switch in the "off" position on the VI.

The accordion factories should implement another linking system to the chords of the 16+16 models, which could link the chords to the next octave, enabling a 16+16+8+8 sound. And, using registers, should be able to set it at 16+8 for a great sounding stradella register switch. Also, a half register to shut down the low low notes (E up to B) to have a starting C note, all in that register. But that's asking way too much...

 

[dak]

Also on the Morino the Stradella bass is not the same. The ones without melody bass (N and S series) have a 5-voice bass. (Note that the M series has just a 4 voice bass.)

Sure? I thought that the M series was comparable with the Artiste D series, and at least the Artiste VID has a 5-reed bass. I also think that I've seen a separate slider for engaging/disengaging the fifth reed on M series models. Possibly an M VI, but I am not sure.

Because of the construction of the melody bass all notes are LM, possibly in different octaves. So in the Stradella bass when you use the "master" every note that plays (base notes and in chords) can only open pallets that give you 2 voices. So the bass can have 4 or 6 voices, but not 5.

I have 8⅚ Well, on average. D–A♭ has 8 reeds, A-C♯ has 10 reeds, indeed matching your 2 reeds per pallet rule.

The Morino (N and S) have another really interesting thing: The standard bass goes from E up to Eb in every octave. That means that the highest two notes that play in the standard bass are a D and Eb, but these two notes are not present in the melody bass. So the melody bass could have had 60 notes instead of 58, but there are no melody bass buttons for the highest two notes. I know of no other accordions that have melody bass and have reeds that only play in the standard bass and not in the melody bass.

Weird indeed. With me, the melody bass covers every note. The standard bass omits D1 and E♭1 and the range from E2 to A♭2. All the rest up to C♯6 can be triggered in the master setting. I don't actually know what a regular converter/melody bass instrument uses as its standard bass chord notes.

You'd be forgiven for not knowing this. I have encountered such Morinos (VI N) where the highest two notes (D and Eb) are more out of tune than other notes because a previous repairer who tuned the accordion tuned the 58 melody bass notes and forgot about the two notes that only play in standard bass...

Then I am glad that my melody bass does cover everything. I suspect that for tuners, having all the notes individually playable is a convenience.