Possible to only read music in C/A when playing on CBA?

[nico79]

Hello everyone,

I am 47 and I have been learning by myself music and cba for a few years.
I have 2 CBA with 5 rows, and practise 30 minutes almost every day .

I tried the movable do for ear training, so I am use to the degrees and the "role" of a note in a scale, I know all my chords, arpeggio and scales (LH and RH) ....but only in C/A !
I can read music and understand the role of the notes and chords only in C/A.

Of course I can tell the name of the notes in other keys, but then I absolutely do not understand what I am reading.

My process when I learn a knew piece is:

- get it from Musescore

- transpose it via Musescore in C/A

- print it

- learn it and play it in C/A on the accordion using only the first 3 rows

- play it in its original key (or not) on the accordion using the 3 rows concerned

I am sure many will find this strange, or stupid but what I initially wanted was to avoid learning to read in all keys, using the special aspect of our instrument that allows to play in all keys , using the same path just by changing the first note.

At first it was okay, but the more I play and the more I am into "classical" music.

It is fastidious, I can only do it with what is available on Musescore and of course, if there are different keys in the piece, all this becomes difficult.

What do you think of it ?

Is there a way to avoid music reading in all keys when using a CBA?

If not, do you have advice for a way, or a method or a book to learn reading using the specificity of our instrument and keeping the benefits of my understanding of C/A

 

[Ffingers]

My take - relate the note on the stave directly to the button on the instrument, calling out the note verbally simultaneously in order to consolidate all three.

On the CBA treble side you have only 3 scale patterns which, on the 5 row instrument can be used for whichever key you wish to play, i.e. you can play a single scale in each of the three patterns using different parts of the keyboard.

I'm using the accordion method compiled by Richard Galleano and his father Lucien which I find very easy to follow even though the treble fingering is written for C griff whereas I have a B griff accordion.

One of the advantages of the CBA keyboard is that it is relatively easy to adapt fingering to the hand shape of the user and/or in my case using principally the fingers which are least affected by osteo-arthritis
By hand shape, I mean the different finger lengths and degrees of articulation of the individual player.

This the reference to Galliano book at Amazon:

Complete Accordion Method: With Fingering Indication for Both Piano and Button Accordions - Galliano, Lucien, Galliano, Richard | 9781540034953 | Amazon.com.au | Books

Complete Accordion Method: With Fingering Indication for Both Piano and Button Accordions [Galliano, Lucien, Galliano, Richard] on Amazon.com.au. *FREE* shipping on eligible orders. Complete Accordion Method: With Fingering Indication for Both Piano and Button Accordions

www.amazon.com.au

though there are other sellers if you care to search for them.

 

[TomBR]

I'd say start to learn to read directly from sheet music to CBA buttons. One of the great things about CBA is you only have four notes in each row
B D F G#,
C# E G Bb,
Eb F# A C
as you know.

Only five more notes to learn compared with your playing in Cmaj/Amin !
Don't think about sol/fa, just go direct from notation to button.
Why not start with music in F and G, so you're adding one flat or one sharp, then add more when you're happy,
Good luck!

 

[Tom]

One thing that helps me in reading music that is not in C/Am is to highlight (with a colored marker) all of the notes that are not in the C major scale. These are the black notes on the piano accordion. I don’t know on the CBA. That makes them easier to see as I play. I don’t know if this is helpful in your situation but maybe.

 

[NickC]

I am not the best at reading on the CBA, but I think that a movable Do approach would be more confusing for me than standard notation. It might work fine with scales and chord shapes, or even etudes, but I think larger intervals and jumps, or even accidentals would be hard. If you look at the staff, and everytime there is a C, you press the same button (well, there are 2 on a 5 row) then it becomes ingrained in your head. Then, like TomBR mentioned, add one flat or sharp at a time. Start playing some music in F, then Bb, then G, then D.
Transposing is a valuable skill to have, but, for me, I would learn standard notation first.

 

[Tom]

This is an interesting line of inquiry. I transpose all my tunes into C, G, or F. Since I make my own arrangements of almost every tune I play. I’m sure I would be better off if I learned to sight read in all keys but I don’t think it’s going to happen. Seems I’m better off spending my time learning, retaining and embellishing my repertoire. That’s hard enough, I’m just a random accordion player from Rhode Island don’tcha know.

 

[JerryPH]

Let’s backtrack a little. Here we have a good example of someone self-taught, but with a unique mind.

They looked for shortcuts that helped them get started… unfortunately, they did not build their foundational skills on a firm base. As long as they did not exceed that level, all is ok, but the moment something above that level comes in, they struggle a lot more than they should and try to use their system to work things out… and it’s hard And doesn’t work.

It’s decision time.

1 - you may continue where you are and stay in your comfort zone and play only in C and A and stop there

2 - the harder but in the long term better answer… take 2 steps back to eventually move forward. Meaning, you need to strengthen your basics because there are some seriously big holes in there.

There is a lot of music out there and it’s not all meant to be heard in 2 keys. There is. LOT of freedom that comes from being able to pick up any sheet music and perhaps struggle through it, but be able to play it in the key it is written in. On top of that, you may have a song that starts in C but then modulates to another key for a few measures… what would you do then??

We cannot and should not build our “musical house” on quicksand, that will always sink on you when you need it the most.

 

[Ventura]

was discussing this with a friend the other day..

there is a school of thought that suggests playing in the same key
all the time will not engage your audience as well as playing
in a variety of keys, particularly the original keys on "well known"
songs/hits

something about the subconcious going to "sleep" sort of when
listening.. or minds drift away from the music and lose "mental" engagement..

who knows, but old timers used to impress that on us way back when..
since i was a gunslinger/accordionist for hundreds of gig-pickup bands
in my youth i did what they wanted and played original keys and variety
of keys same as a variety of beats was necessary.. people gotta dance too..
(back then.. dance floor at every venue)

the result is of course i never use a transposer ever on any keyboard of
any kind or the V-acc's.. i just keep playing wherever the notes are,
don't matter to me

that works for me, maybe not for you, maybe you have to have
that kind of on the job training with old timers and that doesn't
exist anymore so do what works best for you, but mix it up
if you think this makes sense

 

[Tom]

You guys are right as usual but I’m too old a dog to learn new tricks. This is my excuse and I’m sticking with it. Besides, I need to learn to sing better first.

 

[John Doe]

Of course you can play with the

learn it and play it in C/A on the accordion using only the first 3 rows

method. You can type on a keyboard using nothing but the right hand index finger- and after a long time get surprisingly good at it.

If you're happy with where you are and can play what you wish to, well, enjoy yourself and more power to you. Seriously- no snark whatsoever intended.

The "special aspect" is truly good for transposing a piece- read it off the page as written in B major and then shift your starting position and "go" in whatever key you wish- but as a technique to avoid reading and playing music in those pesky keys other than C it is analogous to going on a hike in the wild while rolling yourself in a wheel chair. You'll get better with time but the terrain (musical literature) will constrict you try as you may.*

If you're happy- again- more power to you. If not, stand up on your musical feet and take a deep breath...



* and even casual observation will reveal that many in wheelchairs are substantially more agile than yours truly.

 

[JerryPH]

You guys are right as usual but I’m too old a dog to learn new tricks. This is my excuse and I’m sticking with it. Besides, I need to learn to sing better first.

I seem to recall a man not all that long ago that had drive to learn and improve on a daily basis, that told me they and other people around them saw significant improvements in a very short time (like 1-2 months?)... so, I offer to you that It has little to do with age.

When I hear about 70-75 year old men and women completing Masters or PhD degrees in physics and mathematics or neuro-science, or live the facts that a certain 63-year old that I personally know, is practicing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with goals of one day attaining that black belt... it kind of tells me it has more to do with how much time you spend doing something that will be a direct indicator of how good you will get at that thing. There are also things that help these people get to where want to be a little faster... with focus, drive, consistency and short/long term goals.

Then there are the people that are willing to accept current limitations and happily live with them.
In truth, there is sincerely nothing wrong with either path, but age... let's not use that as an excuse.

I am more in the camp of... chase your dreams hard, we're only on this piece of dirt but once... if it makes you happy, do it.

 

[Tom]

I seem to recall a man not all that long ago that had drive to learn and improve on a daily basis, that told me they and other people around them saw significant improvements in a very short time (like 1-2 months?)... so, I offer to you that It has little to do with age.

When I hear about 70-75 year old men and women completing Masters or PhD degrees in physics and mathematics or neuro-science, or live the facts that a certain 63-year old that I personally know, is practicing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with goals of one day attaining that black belt... it kind of tells me it has more to do with how much time you spend doing something that will be a direct indicator of how good you will get at that thing. There are also things that help these people get to where want to be a little faster... with focus, drive, consistency and short/long term goals.

Then there are the people that are willing to accept current limitations and happily live with them.
In truth, there is sincerely nothing wrong with either path, but age... let's not use that as an excuse.

I am more in the camp of... chase your dreams hard, we're only on this piece of dirt but once... if it makes you happy, do it.

Yeah Jerry, consider me guilty as charged! I “know” I would be better off in the long run if I buckled down and addressed the basics but I just can’t seem to do it. Maybe I will be so inspired another time, I don’t know. At least I admit it. Let’s just consider it a defect of personality….and not the only one!.

 

[NickC]

I don't think Nico is looking to only play in the key of C and A min. He is trying to take advantage of the fingering system on the CBA by 'reading' the music in the key of C, but starting on a different note and using the fingering pattern. So, instead of reading the notes, he is 'reading' the fingering.

It might work at first, but I think reading standard notation would be more beneficial once the pieces get more technical. Plus, you run into situations where you can't quickly auto transpose....on a rehearsal or gig for example.

 

[nico79]

I don't think Nico is looking to only play in the key of C and A min. He is trying to take advantage of the fingering system on the CBA by 'reading' the music in the key of C, but starting on a different note and using the fingering pattern. So, instead of reading the notes, he is 'reading' the fingering....

You got my point ! I was about to change my first post, thinking I might not have been clear.

Actualy, I think I have not been clear.

I would have loved to learn music as a child the usual way, but it did not happen.

So, as an adult I try to learn and keep learning.

There are different paths that leads to music. And once into music, there are several path to learn it. I would dream of a teacher building my most effective path. Now facing reality, for some reasons, I have to build this learning paths myself.

Considering that, I was very interested in the use of movable do because it focuses on the function of a note inside a key. And the movable do appears really adapted to the CBA. Not to the PA of course because the paths change if you play in the tonality of Em or Am.

The movable do is an old method, at this time I just began the book Tonic Sol Fa from John Curwen (1850 or so)
Maybe my question should have been: how can I apply technically the movable do to sight reading wit a CBA ?

 

[Ffingers]

Now I am confused.
Are you wanting to fly a jet aircraft by reading manuals intended for steam engineers?
"...how can I apply technically the movable do to sight reading wit a CBA ?"
Are you referring to sight reading tonic sol fa or to reading the standard treble and bass 5 line presentation (with the variations provided for the players of orchestral instruments)?

 

[losthobos]

I've been happily fondling and fumbling for years, I can't sight read music but can decipher it...
There is an old school of thought that suggests playing ONLY in the key of C until you can CLEARLY HEAR the chord changes....once you have this skill key changes become easier.
Next step (and always forever more) when attempting a new piece in a new key first...play the scale of that key up and down (even if it's just with one finger) then play the diatonic chords of that key up and down...( ie Cmajor,Dmin,Emin,Fmaj,Gmaj,Amin,Bdim,C)
Now year ears and fingers should be prepared to play the piece without necessarily worrying about counting sharps or flats etc...
In retrospect this formula seems a great system and I wish I'd built my foundation upon it rather than being in a hurry to learn lots of tunes,keys and rhythms

 

[nico79]

I've been happily fondling and fumbling for years, I can't sight read music but can decipher it...
There is an old school of thought that suggests playing ONLY in the key of C until you can CLEARLY HEAR the chord changes....once you have this skill key changes become easier.
Next step (and always forever more) when attempting a new piece in a new key first...play the scale of that key up and down (even if it's just with one finger) then play the diatonic chords of that key up and down...( ie Cmajor,Dmin,Emin,Fmaj,Gmaj,Amin,Bdim,C)
Now year ears and fingers should be prepared to play the piece without necessarily worrying about counting sharps or flats etc...
In retrospect this formula seems a great system and I wish I'd built my foundation upon it rather than being in a hurry to learn lots of tunes,keys and rhythms

Yes, that's it.

Actually, I did not mentionned: because I had a very poor ear, I started first with functionnal ear training.

Let's make everyone scream:
in fact, for the accordeon CBA solo, music could be written always in C/A, with an indication of the composer : "play it in Gm" and "now play it in E"

I know it is not reality, and that I can't call Piazzola for him to change his work.

I know that the score are already written in all different keys.... But if you think truely about it, for an accordeonist CBA playing solo, what is the use ? The same for an irish whistle player, he could learn all this tune in the same key and then play it on his A or D or whatever whistle.

Things are what they are at one specific time, but that doesn't mean they are made the best way... especially in the matter of teaching.

The usual way or learning solfege was to learn it no matter your instrument.


So I am in search of a solution using movable do: first beacause I love the functionnal approach, and secondly because I believe it makes more sense to someone learning CBA (not PA) .

Maybe, I will find out that finally that it is harder.
Maybe the trick that makes me quickly see in a G score a d (5) as a g (soh) in my C scale,... maybe this trick doesn t fit me or will take me a lifetime to get.

I am in search.

 

[TomBR]

I think there is one way and that is what you are doing. Put all your sheet music into C/Amin play on three rows and use the "movable do" that CBA offers so that the music comes out in the pitch you want.
(You could do the same thing with an electronic keyboard or piano accordion, always play on the white notes and use the electronics to output the pitch you want.)
But if you only want to read music in C/Am then you'll have to get the sheet music you want to play put into C/Am.

 

[nico79]

In the book of Curwen who dedicated his life to his method, the pupiles, once they know all the degree of the C key were progressively train to use what he calls the modulator. I put the two pages concerned below:

 

[Pipemajor]

I don't think Nico is looking to only play in the key of C and A min. He is trying to take advantage of the fingering system on the CBA by 'reading' the music in the key of C, but starting on a different note and using the fingering pattern. So, instead of reading the notes, he is 'reading' the fingering.

It might work at first, but I think reading standard notation would be more beneficial once the pieces get more technical. Plus, you run into situations where you can't quickly auto transpose....on a rehearsal or gig for example.

Don't know if my method is different but it works for me.
I read music reasonably well although I need to practice the left hand more, and am also ok on theory.
When I play a tune, I first look at the key, to find out how many sharps or flats, then the time signature.
From then on I just play the notes, or, if it is a new tune I will use right hand only ,or even "play "it in my head to get an idea of the tune.
I'm not concerned with what key it is in as I know where the notes are on the (cba) accordion and just play them, SLOWLY at first then gradually increase speed as I get familiar with the tune.
Ps. I'm 83 and don't even consider my age being a problem.
I'm forever taking up new hobbys and, being on my own now I can do whatever I like.
I would dearly love to get a motorbike again but I know I couldn't get insurance, so, unfortunately that won't happen.