Condition of reeds

[Frank Barocco]

Hi there,
I am looking at a used model (a 1960s Excelsior) and I wanted opinions on the state of the reeds. I don't know much about how to assess them. I heard two opinions so far, one person said they are fine and the other said they're butchered beyond belief and that whoever worked on the reeds should close up shop, and that no one should purchase that accordion. I wonder why.
Any info?
Thanks

 

[Ventura]

i hope Paul will shed some light

i don't understand why there are double riveted reeds out of chamber,
but single rivets in chamber..

would this mean some of the original high end reeds were swapped out/stolen ?

 

[Frank Barocco]

i hope Paul will shed some light

i don't understand why there are double riveted reeds out of chamber,
but single rivets in chamber..

would this mean some of the original high end reeds were swapped out/stolen ?

Thank you. By the way the double riveted reeds are on the bass side.
Also, forgot to mention: the accordion sounds fine, except for a few notes (higher on the treble side) that have a slower response and 1 with very minor buzzing.

 

[isorry123]

Thank you. By the way the double riveted reeds are on the bass side.
Also, forgot to mention: the accordion sounds fine, except for a few notes (higher on the treble side) that have a slower response and 1 with very minor buzzing.

Sounds fixable

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

They do sort of look like someone tuned them with a chainsaw.

 

[debra]

The marks on the reeds look like some tuning attempts have used a file (to lower the notes) and other attempts used a scratcher. For an accordion that's 60 years old the tuning marks are certainly not excessive. If the accordion was not used professionally it probably needed tuning every five years, which means it should have marks from around 12 times it was tuned. I believe from what I'm seeing the accordion was tuned less often than that, which is a good thing for the reeds (and not so good for people who had to listen to the out of tune accordion being played.
Reeds can take a lot of abuse from files and scratchers and still be fine. It's only when a butcher attacks reeds with a Dremel and grinding attachment and makes deep dents/pits that reeds get really ruined. That does not appear to be the case here so this accordion can still last a long time and can be enjoyed when it is tuned properly again.

 

[debra]

They do sort of look like someone tuned them with a chainsaw.

You wouldn't want to even look at the result of using a chainsaw... The marks look like someone used a file, which isn't easy when the reeds are still on the block. That's why scratchers are used most often to lower the pitch of a reed, and sometimes sandpaper is used.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

The marks on the reeds look like some tuning attempts have used a file (to lower the notes) and other attempts used a scratcher. For an accordion that's 60 years old the tuning marks are certainly not excessive. If the accordion was not used professionally it probably needed tuning every five years, which means it should have marks from around 12 times it was tuned. I believe from what I'm seeing the accordion was tuned less often than that, which is a good thing for the reeds (and not so good for people who had to listen to the out of tune accordion being played.
Reeds can take a lot of abuse from files and scratchers and still be fine. It's only when a butcher attacks reeds with a Dremel and grinding attachment and makes deep dents/pits that reeds get really ruined. That does not appear to be the case here so this accordion can still last a long time and can be enjoyed when it is tuned properly again.

I am seeing what appear to be deep Dremel marks. Maybe because I'm looking at it on my phone I am misinterpreting what I am seeing.

 

[Frank Barocco]

You wouldn't want to even look at the result of using a chainsaw... The marks look like someone used a file, which isn't easy when the reeds are still on the block. That's why scratchers are used most often to lower the pitch of a reed, and sometimes sandpaper is used.

I am seeing what appear to be deep Dremel marks. Maybe because I'm looking at it on my phone I am misinterpreting what I am seeing.

Thanks Paul and Big Squeezy for your responses!

To see if we are talking about the same thing, maybe what Big Squeezy is interpreting as Dremel marks is what I marked on this attachment here?
Also the dents on the tip of that same tongue.

Or could those specific indentations in that particular reed be the result of filing?

I assume that if a dremel had been used destructively we would see some notes with unstable pitch and other problems when playing, no?
Which does not appear to be the case for this particular accordion - it sounds fine and stable.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

Thanks Paul and Big Squeezy for your responses!

To see if we are talking about the same thing, maybe what Big Squeezy is interpreting as Dremel marks is what I marked on this attachment here?
Also the dents on the tip of that same tongue.

Or could those specific indentations in that particular reed be the result of filing?

I assume that if a dremel had been used destructively we would see some notes with unstable pitch and other problems when playing, no?
Which does not appear to be the case for this particular accordion - it sounds fine and stable.

You wouldn't necessarily notice any difference in sound if the reeds had been tuned with a Dremel. It can make the reeds more likely to break if the pits are deep enough. I actually believe the anti-dremel absolutist position to be a bit overwrought, as there are ways of using a Dremel that don't damage the reeds any more that a file and scratcher would. However, these reeds look to me like someone attacked them pretty harshly. They may still be alright. Hard to tell from these pictures.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

i hope Paul will shed some light

i don't understand why there are double riveted reeds out of chamber,
but single rivets in chamber..

would this mean some of the original high end reeds were swapped out/stolen ?

The double riveted reeds are bass reeds, it would seem.

 

[JIM D.]

The reasoning for the advice given you is from your photos, I can only surmise that amateur has butchered these reed tongues to make then useless
for future repair.

 

[Frank Barocco]

The reasoning for the advice given you is from your photos, I can only surmise that amateur has butchered these reed tongues to make then useless
for future repair.

Not sure I follow what you meant!

 

[Ventura]

regarding a blanket ban on (running) dremel tools

you see, the thing is, it really wants a delicate touch to tune reeds..
the objective is to change the relative mass in a bare minimum manner
to achieve the desired result.. removed steel does not grow back..

a running dremel tool can remove an incredible amount of mass
in an instant

in the hands of a ham fisted amateur (who, to begin with, is hardly
likely to be touching the reed in the best spot) then having to re-touch
higher or lower again.. again.. again..

and then, the amplification of the internet.. we go from one idiot
giving advise somewhere on how to tune reeds based on his or her uneducated,
ill advised method, which seemed to work for a minute and so gets bragged,
then repeated by someone who read it, then repeated again until it becomes
internet fact

oh, by the way.. those previously bragged upon dremeled reeds have been
snapping in two because of the heat-induced loss of temper, the weakness
in the vicinity of the flex point.. and did that ever get re-reported by the surprised
original wizard-of-the-repairshop poster ?

of course a professional who knows their stuff can use any tool they
see fit that will work, but even in skilled hands, a split second from
a bee in your shop flying past your head is all it takes for a running Dremel
to ruin a reed

so for the benefit and protection of the amateur repair people, i truly
prefer the speculative advise of idiots to be sent into a black hole,
lest a well meaning and even rather careful normal person be fooled
into following some actually really bad, though seemingly reasonable,
advise, and then ruining their accordion

and the only good Dremel tool is one with a cold, dead battery

maybe this sounds harsh, but disinformation gets wings on the internet

 

[debra]

You wouldn't necessarily notice any difference in sound if the reeds had been tuned with a Dremel. It can make the reeds more likely to break if the pits are deep enough. I actually believe the anti-dremel absolutist position to be a bit overwrought, as there are ways of using a Dremel that don't damage the reeds any more that a file and scratcher would. However, these reeds look to me like someone attacked them pretty harshly. They may still be alright. Hard to tell from these pictures.

The Dremel is a very useful tool for other things. And there is nothing inherently wrong about using a Dremel but it depends on the attachment used. There are "grinding stone" attachments that are often used by accordion butchers. They make pits and change the behavior of the reed. It's not just that a reed is more likely to break in the weak spot but also that the way in which the reed reacts to changes in sound volume changes. To keep the frequency as constant as possible the reed's strength should be as evenly spread over its length as possible. That's why it's generally preferred to use a scratcher and make long scratches from about halfway down the reed towards the rivet. (Don't scratch nearer to the top because that negates the effect of the scratch further towards the rivet. You can also tune a reed down by using sandpaper for the most evenly spread removal of material (in the half towards the rivet). That could also be done with a sandpaper attachment on a Dremel on slow revs and circling over the half of the reed. It goes a bit quicker than manually sanding, and when done very gently and spread well over the entire surface (half) it leaves no ugly scratch marks.
It's a bit like with many other tools: the tool itself is not good or bad, it is what you do with it.

 

[isorry123]

Thinking I was slick, i bought a dremel yesterday, not for tuning, but for sanding wax off of reed blocks.

While trying to get the old wax off the block, the wax immediately softened up and gummed up the sanding attachment.

Went back to the knife to scrape the wax.

 

[debra]

Thinking I was slick, i bought a dremel yesterday, not for tuning, but for sanding wax off of reed blocks.

While trying to get the old wax off the block, the wax immediately softened up and gummed up the sanding attachment.

Went back to the knife to scrape the wax.

The Dremel will come in handy for other jobs. I for instance have used it successfully to make cutouts in bellow frames where L reeds in cassotto were hitting the frame. And I have even used it on piccolo reeds where the manufacturer left the reed too thick just where the reed meets the square part for the rivet. That thickness caused the reed to not respond to scratching to lower the frequency. Come to think of it: the Dremel was used only for fixing manufacturing defects...
And for removing the wax you might also consider using a small chisel. Just make sure you don't cut into the wood. For the very last traces of wax you can use a cloth with benzine (not gasoline but a benzine used for cleaning, called "wasbenzine" over here).

 

[Ventura]

i think it is called varsol over here

used to be easy to get, but the last gas station i knew of
that carried it is gone now..

they have gallon jugs of something similar for use in parts washers

 

[debra]

i think it is called varsol over here

used to be easy to get, but the last gas station i knew of
that carried it is gone now..

they have gallon jugs of something similar for use in parts washers

Here that "benzine" is sold in every hardware store or drug store, not at gas stations.

 

[isorry123]

The Dremel will come in handy for other jobs. I for instance have used it successfully to make cutouts in bellow frames where L reeds in cassotto were hitting the frame. And I have even used it on piccolo reeds where the manufacturer left the reed too thick just where the reed meets the square part for the rivet. That thickness caused the reed to not respond to scratching to lower the frequency. Come to think of it: the Dremel was used only for fixing manufacturing defects...
And for removing the wax you might also consider using a small chisel. Just make sure you don't cut into the wood. For the very last traces of wax you can use a cloth with benzine (not gasoline but a benzine used for cleaning, called "wasbenzine" over here).

Chisel is a good idea. And I’ll look into cleaning benzene. How good is “good enough” when it comes to taking off old wax.

The right answer is 100% clean, but to go from 0-90 is the same effort as going from 90-100. Not sure if that last 10% makes a difference