MUSETTE - Help needed

[Pinu]

Dear Accordionists Forum’s members,

I’m Giovanni Volpatti, an engineer with the (weird – at least according to my wife) hobby of making research about the instrument I love, by means of applying my engineering knowledge to the study of the accordion.

I have already finished and published some papers and give a presentation at the ASA (Acoustical Society of American). Here few links for who is interested.
Beyond the Bellows: A Critical Review of Free Reed Instrument Research, Gaps, and Future Innovations (American Journal of Arts and Human Science)
Materials in Accordion Construction: A Comprehensive Review of Traditional and Modern Approaches (Journal of Innovative Research)
Comparative study of higher modes of vibration in cantilever beams: Exact analytical analysis versus FEM analysis for accordion free reed acoustics (The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America)

I’m actually preparing a new paper treating, among others, the topic of “MUSETTE(S)”. The “(S)”, so the fact that several numbers of Musettes are existing, is in fact the true reason of this question.

In this sense, I think that a pivoting source of information is the very famous video Accordion Buyer's Guide - Comparison of 10 Musette De-tunings Dry to Wet from Liberty Bellows (USA), in which they list several type of musette detuning depending on the style:
0 cents = Unison (Dry, Secco) Classical, Balkan
2 cents = Concert (Violin, Swing Secco) Jazz, Tango, Cleveland Polka
4 cents = Swing (Swing Mosso), Gypsy Jazz, Brazilian, Klezmer
7 cents = Demi-Swing (Mezzo Swing), Irish
12 cents = Moderate Tremolo, Slovenian, Tex-Mex, Alpine
15 cents = Standard Tremolo, German, Italian
18 cents = Fast Tremolo, Modern French
22 cents = Very Fast Tremolo, Old French, Old Italian, Italiano Mosso
25 cents = Extremely Fast Tremolo (Sardo) Scottish
It is not clearly said in the video, but obviously those apply to 2-voices musette.

I’m actually writing in this forum to ask your support in gathering experiences and feedback from all over the world. I prepared few questions that would help my research:

• Where you live/where you normally play, do you normally use/see 2 voices or 3 voices musette?
• 2-voices musette: which is the normal detuning it is in use and for which style? Do you confirm the table from Liberty Bellows or you have a different experience? Any other “exotic” detuning?
• 3-voices musette: do you know/use only “symmetric” detuning (same, in cents, in both ascending and descending directions) or also “asymmetric” detuning?
• 3-voices symmetric musette: the detuning table from Liberty Bellow also applies here? In which cases is it valid? Any additional comment is more than welcome
• 3-voices asymmetric musette: why is it used? Which kind of asymmetry is there (more in the positive? more in the negative? Only negative? Only positive? …) and why? Did you ask it in purpose or was it coming as default from the accordion producer? Is it linked to the style of music played or to the geography? Any additional comment is more than welcome
• 2 voices+piccolo musette: Do you use/know if it is used? Can be classified still “musette”? How much detuning do you have in the M M+? Any additional comment is more than welcome
• 3 voices+piccolo musette: Do you use/know if it is used? Can be classified still “musette”? How much detuning do you have in the M M+? Any additional comment is more than welcome
• Musette “in cassotto”: Do you consider the musette with a voice M in cassotto still a musette? Is it very much used? Which is the influence? In which style is used? Do you see (and why) any limit of detuning when having a cassotto? Any additional comment is more than welcome
• Musette “in sordina”: How and Why?
• L L+ Musette: is it frequently used? Which kind(s) of detuning is(are) used? Coupled with cassotto normally? if yes, how many voices in the cassotto? Any additional comment is more than welcome
• Musette in the bass: was it never done? Any additional comment is more than welcome

What I suggest you is to copy-paste my question and embed you answers directly within it.

Thanks a lot in advance for your kind help.

 

[Pinu]

In order to help you guys, I’m posting here an example of an answer based on actually what I’m use to experience myself.

• Where you live/where you normally play, do you normally use/see 2 voices or 3 voices musette? : normally 3-voices is used for the folk music, the 2-voices in the other cases
• 2-voices musette: which is the normal detuning it is in use and for which style? Do you confirm the table from Liberty Bellows or you have a different experience? Any other “exotic” detuning? : Here we tend to have any kind of instrument. The table from Liberty Bellow is here confirmed
• 3-voices musette: do you know/use only “symmetric” detuning (same, in cents, in both ascending and descending directions) or also “asymmetric” detuning? : I have only tried symmetric detuning, but I have heard an asymmetric one, but never tried. No clue why should we go for asymmetric.
• 3-voices symmetric musette: the detuning table from Liberty Bellow also applies here? In which cases is it valid? Any additional comment is more than welcome : I have a LMMM in which the musette is symmetric with a detuning of +-15cents
• 3-voices asymmetric musette: why is it used? Which kind of asymmetry is there (more in the positive? more in the negative? Only negative? Only positive? …) and why? Did you ask it in purpose or was it coming as default from the accordion producer? Is it linked to the style of music played or to the geography? Any additional comment is more than welcome : I have seen detuning of -5cent and +20cent. No clue why, but it was requested from the player.
• 2 voices+piccolo musette: Do you use/know if it is used? Can be classified still “musette”? How much detuning do you have in the M M+? Any additional comment is more than welcome : It is normally used in LMMH instruments with small detuning of the M+, in order to have additional high frequency sounds. It is sometime used in the French musette, normally when having M in cassotto and looking of higher tones too.
• 3 voices+piccolo musette: Do you use/know if it is used? Can be classified still “musette”? How much detuning do you have in the M M+? Any additional comment is more than welcome : Not very much in used in my experience and also not truly a musette. The 3 MMM are also much stronger then the H, that is almost like muted
• Musette “in cassotto”: Do you consider the musette with a voice M in cassotto still a musette? Is it very much used? Which is the influence? In which style is used? Do you see (and why) any limit of detuning when having a cassotto? Any additional comment is more than welcome : Very much used in 2+2 accordions. It is not the true musette, but it may sound quite interesting. In Italy, people are using for the folk the 3+1 (only L in cassotto), to avoid having a musette in Cassotto.
• Musette “in sordina”: How and Why? : No info
• L L+ Musette: is it frequently used? Which kind(s) of detuning is(are) used? Coupled with cassotto normally? if yes, how many voices in the cassotto? : No info I have seen certain accordions for Varietè and the accordion from Zanchini/Ottavianelli for jazz. No direct experience. No clue about the detuning.
• Musette in the bass: was it never done? Any additional comment is more than welcome : No info

 

[Thomas N]

Hi Pinu! There are some really smart people here that will hopefully provide great detailed responses.

I just hit the musette register on my Excelsior 960 and play it. Italian 15 cents tuning if I recall correctly. LOL!

 

[Pinu]

Hi Pinu! There are some really smart people here that will hopefully provide great detailed responses.

I just hit the musette register on my Excelsior 960 and play it. Italian 15 cents tuning if I recall correctly. LOL!

Thanks a lot.

2-voices of 3-voices musette? WIth cassotto?

 

[Ventura]

some 960's (like mine) have no musette tuning
regardless of how many M dots appear on the shifts

some LMMH Cassotto accordions also come with no musette
because the box is intended for jazz, OR because the dealership
is expected to do the final musette tuning based upon the
wishes of the final buyer. This was more common when more
dealerships with service departments existed, and makes sense
because the number of expensive accordions a dealer can
carry is limited, and selling an accordion sight unseen
"to be delivered later with such and such a tuning scheme"
is impractical / unnafordable

so just because some shifts are commonly called musette and have
multiple dots on them, doesn't mean they are in fact musette at all..
they may be unison / Jazz by intent

 

[wirralaccordion]

"3-voices asymmetric musette: why is it used? Which kind of asymmetry is there (more in the positive? more in the negative? Only negative? Only positive? …) and why? Did you ask it in purpose or was it coming as default from the accordion producer? Is it linked to the style of music played or to the geography? Any additional comment is more than welcome : I have seen detuning of -5cent and +20cent. No clue why, but it was requested from the player."

I would have thought the answer is obvious. I myself had my LMMM accordion tuned to -5 cents, 0 cents, +16 cents so as to allow me to play three tunings on one accordion, i.e. 5 cents ( swing ) and 16 cents ( standard tremolo ) and +21 cents ( very fast tremolo ) rather than requiring three accordions.

 

[Pinu]

some 960's (like mine) have no musette tuning
regardless of how many M dots appear on the shifts

some LMMH Cassotto accordions also come with no musette
because the box is intended for jazz, OR because the dealership
is expected to do the final musette tuning based upon the
wishes of the final buyer. This was more common when more
dealerships with service departments existed, and makes sense
because the number of expensive accordions a dealer can
carry is limited, and selling an accordion sight unseen
"to be delivered later with such and such a tuning scheme"
is impractical / unnafordable

so just because some shifts are commonly called musette and have
multiple dots on them, doesn't mean they are in fact musette at all..
they may be unison / Jazz by intent

Interesting feedback. It is the first time I hear that the accordions were made with no detuning and just finally detuned as per the customer need.

Where do you come from? Just to complement your interesting message with a geographic location

 

[Pinu]

"3-voices asymmetric musette: why is it used? Which kind of asymmetry is there (more in the positive? more in the negative? Only negative? Only positive? …) and why? Did you ask it in purpose or was it coming as default from the accordion producer? Is it linked to the style of music played or to the geography? Any additional comment is more than welcome : I have seen detuning of -5cent and +20cent. No clue why, but it was requested from the player."

I would have thought the answer is obvious. I myself had my LMMM accordion tuned to -5 cents, 0 cents, +16 cents so as to allow me to play three tunings on one accordion, i.e. 5 cents ( swing ) and 16 cents ( standard tremolo ) and +21 cents ( very fast tremolo ) rather than requiring three accordions.

Thanks a lot. Indeed , you suggestion may be very probable and reasonable.

Yet, is this the only reason? Is there not a sound-based reason of having 2 (or several) accordions in one?

I am always not 100% convinced of the trivial solution only; I always believe there is something more basic that drive our decision...but eventually I am wrong

 

[Pinu]

Here guys, among the 4 questions I asked in these days, I was expecting more help. This is , according to me, a key question.
The topic of cassotto or not and the topic of the 3-voice musette( asymmetric or symmetric) are for me not yet fully answered.

Detuning? Not many comments on that topic too.

Thanks a lot for helping me

 

[Ventura]

well Pinu, perhaps look at it this way

it is a lot of work to tune an accordion, and once tuned, much
more work to change that tuning

someone who knows how to tune an accordion and can afford
the time and effort, could experiment with symmetrical tuning
as an intellectual endeavor, and perhaps a use would be found
for the resulting sound

on the other hand, it is far more useful to have an idea of the kind
of musette sound you want for this kind of music and that kind of music,
or even many kinds of music, and so follow general knowledge to
tune M and M+ for a certain kind of music,
then tune M- in relationship to M+ to a (different) certain kind of music
and (hopefully) the result of M- M M+ is also useful (and it should be since
it will share elements of the two primary musette tunings that were set)

to tune to a desired result like this also uses the ears of the tuner
and the person who specified the tuning

by contrast, any purely mathematical tuning, particularly symmetrical,
does not use the ear, not have a targeted purpose musically..

and hey, something symmetrical might turn out to be interesting and
useful but that's a heckofa lot of time and money to invest in a maybe

meanwhile if you tune to musette that we already know are useful,
and intend to play songs using those tunings, thats a sure thing

 

[Alan Sharkis]

well Pinu, perhaps look at it this way

it is a lot of work to tune an accordion, and once tuned, much
more work to change that tuning

someone who knows how to tune an accordion and can afford
the time and effort, could experiment with symmetrical tuning
as an intellectual endeavor, and perhaps a use would be found
for the resulting sound

on the other hand, it is far more useful to have an idea of the kind
of musette sound you want for this kind of music and that kind of music,
or even many kinds of music, and so follow general knowledge to
tune M and M+ for a certain kind of music,
then tune M- in relationship to M+ to a (different) certain kind of music
and (hopefully) the result of M- M M+ is also useful (and it should be since
it will share elements of the two primary musette tunings that were set)

to tune to a desired result like this also uses the ears of the tuner
and the person who specified the tuning

by contrast, any purely mathematical tuning, particularly symmetrical,
does not use the ear, not have a targeted purpose musically..

and hey, something symmetrical might turn out to be interesting and
useful but that's a heckofa lot of time and money to invest in a maybe

meanwhile if you tune to musette that we already know are useful,
and intend to play songs using those tunings, thats a sure thing

There was a dealer who always, when ordering accordions with two or three M reeds, would always order the M reeds tuned totally dry. That way, when they sold the accordions out of stock, and the customer played the demo model, the customer would be asked if they wanted musette tuning -- at an additional cost. If a customer came in wanting a musette-tuned accordion, it would then have to be "special-ordered" from the.factory at additional cost.

 

[Pinu]

well Pinu, perhaps look at it this way

it is a lot of work to tune an accordion, and once tuned, much
more work to change that tuning

someone who knows how to tune an accordion and can afford
the time and effort, could experiment with symmetrical tuning
as an intellectual endeavor, and perhaps a use would be found
for the resulting sound

on the other hand, it is far more useful to have an idea of the kind
of musette sound you want for this kind of music and that kind of music,
or even many kinds of music, and so follow general knowledge to
tune M and M+ for a certain kind of music,
then tune M- in relationship to M+ to a (different) certain kind of music
and (hopefully) the result of M- M M+ is also useful (and it should be since
it will share elements of the two primary musette tunings that were set)

to tune to a desired result like this also uses the ears of the tuner
and the person who specified the tuning

by contrast, any purely mathematical tuning, particularly symmetrical,
does not use the ear, not have a targeted purpose musically..

and hey, something symmetrical might turn out to be interesting and
useful but that's a heckofa lot of time and money to invest in a maybe

meanwhile if you tune to musette that we already know are useful,
and intend to play songs using those tunings, thats a sure thing

Thanks for the reply. Interesting perspective

 

[Pinu]

There was a dealer who always, when ordering accordions with two or three M reeds, would always order the M reeds tuned totally dry. That way, when they sold the accordions out of stock, and the customer played the demo model, the customer would be asked if they wanted musette tuning -- at an additional cost. If a customer came in wanting a musette-tuned accordion, it would then have to be "special-ordered" from the.factory at additional cost.

Thanks. I see the point. In which geography was/is this the case?