About reed quality

[Vero]

Hello everyone, I am in the market selecting an accordion and I hope you can share some knowledge about reeds.

While browsing through the catalogs of different accordion brands, I noticed the section on reed quality. Some are marked as SD, some as H, and others as TAM (which I guess means Tipo A Mano) or A plus, etc. I would like to know the meanings of these abbreviations and how they rank in terms of quality.

Do these abbreviations represent quality rather than brand? Eg. reeds of Durall/superdurall is a brand or a class of quality? Is the quality of reeds of the same grade similar across different brands? Which brand or grade of reeds should we prioritize in our selection? Any insights would be apprieciated.

 

[debra]

There is more to learn about reeds (and reed quality) than a simple person like me can comprehend... but I know a few things at least.
Hohner used to make at least three different types of reeds: H, T and Artiste. I believe that H reeds were the lower end, T were a bit peculiar because they had a trapezoidal shape with a rectangular separator between the reeds, so the reeds look like they come closer together near the tip. T reeds were used for instance in the Atlantic series. Artiste reeds were the better reeds, used for instance in the Atlantic "de luxe" models and in early Morino accordions, on the treble side only.
SD is an abbreviation of Super Dural, and indicates machine-made Italian reeds. Good SD reeds are actually not bad at all, but have a bit more tolerance between the sizes of the holes in the reed plates and the reed tongues. By having a slightly wider gap these reeds use (actually waste) more air than the more expensive reed types. You mostly notice this on the first notes that are high enough to no longer have valves. (Typically notes around C6 or D6).
TAM stands for Tipo a Mano and their reed tongues are stamped out of sheets of steel by a machine. The reed tongues are the same type of steel and the same size as the A Mano reeds, which are cut out of a narrow band of steel. The length of the a mano reed tongue follows the direction of the band of steel. The tipo a mano reeds are cut perpendicular to the direction of the (wide) roll of steel. (That direction may have a slight influence on the sound and durability of the reeds.) Tipo a mano and a mano reeds are "finished" by hand.
People sometimes discuss which type of reed is "better". The reality is that the quality of tipo a mano and a mano reeds depends a lot on the manual labor of putting reed tongues and reed plates together and hammering in the rivets. If the rivets are hit too hard (and/or many times) the reed plate may deform and if they are not hit enough then years later the reed tongue may not hold 100% and the frequency may become less stable... While Super Dural reeds have a bit less potential for top quality their production process, being fully mechanized, is better controlled. As a result I expect fewer differences between different Super Dural reeds from the same or different manufacturers, whereas there are differences in the tam and a mano reeds that cause people to prefer one brand over another.

 

[Thomas N]

There is more to learn about reeds (and reed quality) than a simple person like me can comprehend... but I know a few things at least.
Hohner used to make at least three different types of reeds: H, T and Artiste. I believe that H reeds were the lower end, T were a bit peculiar because they had a trapezoidal shape with a rectangular separator between the reeds, so the reeds look like they come closer together near the tip. T reeds were used for instance in the Atlantic series. Artiste reeds were the better reeds, used for instance in the Atlantic "de luxe" models and in early Morino accordions, on the treble side only.
SD is an abbreviation of Super Dural, and indicates machine-made Italian reeds. Good SD reeds are actually not bad at all, but have a bit more tolerance between the sizes of the holes in the reed plates and the reed tongues. By having a slightly wider gap these reeds use (actually waste) more air than the more expensive reed types. You mostly notice this on the first notes that are high enough to no longer have valves. (Typically notes around C6 or D6.
TAM stands for Tipo a Mano and their reed tongues are stamped out of sheets of steel by a machine. The reed tongues are the same type of steel and the same size as the A Mano reeds, which are cut out of a narrow band of steel. The length of the a mano reed tongue follows the direction of the band of steel. The tipo a mano reeds are cut perpendicular to the direction of the (wide) roll of steel. (That direction may have a slight influence on the sound and durability of the reeds.) Tipo a mano and a mano reeds are "finished" by hand.
People sometimes discuss which type of reed is "better". The reality is that the quality of tipo a mano and a mano reeds depends a lot on the manual labor of putting reed tongues and reed plates together and hammering in the rivets. If the rivets are hit too hard (and/or many times) the reed plate may deform and if they are not hit enough then years later the reed tongue may not hold 100% and the frequency may become less stable... While Super Dural reeds have a bit less potential for top quality their production process, being fully mechanized, is better controlled. As a result I expect fewer differences between different Super Dural reeds from the same or different manufacturers, whereas there are differences in the tam and a mano reeds that cause people to prefer one brand over another.

That was an excellent primer succinctly summed up in a couple paragraphs Paul! Thanks!

 

[Vero]

There is more to learn about reeds (and reed quality) than a simple person like me can comprehend... but I know a few things at least.
Hohner used to make at least three different types of reeds: H, T and Artiste. I believe that H reeds were the lower end, T were a bit peculiar because they had a trapezoidal shape with a rectangular separator between the reeds, so the reeds look like they come closer together near the tip. T reeds were used for instance in the Atlantic series. Artiste reeds were the better reeds, used for instance in the Atlantic "de luxe" models and in early Morino accordions, on the treble side only.
SD is an abbreviation of Super Dural, and indicates machine-made Italian reeds. Good SD reeds are actually not bad at all, but have a bit more tolerance between the sizes of the holes in the reed plates and the reed tongues. By having a slightly wider gap these reeds use (actually waste) more air than the more expensive reed types. You mostly notice this on the first notes that are high enough to no longer have valves. (Typically notes around C6 or D6).
TAM stands for Tipo a Mano and their reed tongues are stamped out of sheets of steel by a machine. The reed tongues are the same type of steel and the same size as the A Mano reeds, which are cut out of a narrow band of steel. The length of the a mano reed tongue follows the direction of the band of steel. The tipo a mano reeds are cut perpendicular to the direction of the (wide) roll of steel. (That direction may have a slight influence on the sound and durability of the reeds.) Tipo a mano and a mano reeds are "finished" by hand.
People sometimes discuss which type of reed is "better". The reality is that the quality of tipo a mano and a mano reeds depends a lot on the manual labor of putting reed tongues and reed plates together and hammering in the rivets. If the rivets are hit too hard (and/or many times) the reed plate may deform and if they are not hit enough then years later the reed tongue may not hold 100% and the frequency may become less stable... While Super Dural reeds have a bit less potential for top quality their production process, being fully mechanized, is better controlled. As a result I expect fewer differences between different Super Dural reeds from the same or different manufacturers, whereas there are differences in the tam and a mano reeds that cause people to prefer one brand over another.

Wow, thanks for the answer. You're like an accordion encyclopaedia！

 

[John Doe]

Truly a great executive summary on a fraught subject.

The bottom line for any purchaser though is to listen to how an instrument actually sounds. While it's unlikely that a set of reeds made in a Karachi suburb out of tin cans is going to be anything other than abysmal, it's quite possible that no name machine reeds may sound just as good or better than poorly implemented hand crafted reeds made of unobtanium. The end result is what counts and much of the information available at dealers and through web sites is heavily filtered through a miasma of advertising hoopla. "Sound samples" on a website are no better than the end speakers on your phone or computer and a decent sound engineer can mike up anything to sound superb.

A lot of mechanical musical components do not age all that gracefully for any instrument- though well cared for items which were great when new will still probably be ...great- though probably in need of fine tuning/voicing to reestablish that greatness. There are clearly once superb instruments which have great nostalgia value but which are no longer the shining beacons of excellence they once were- even with extensive (and probably very pricey) work.

The only caveat is that resale, in the fullness of time should you do so, will be affected by the perceived value as represented by the aforementioned hoopla and that will be pretty much independant of how it sounds.

 

[Vero]

Truly a great executive summary on a fraught subject.

The bottom line for any purchaser though is to listen to how an instrument actually sounds. While it's unlikely that a set of reeds made in a Karachi suburb out of tin cans is going to be anything other than abysmal, it's quite possible that no name machine reeds may sound just as good or better than poorly implemented hand crafted reeds made of unobtanium. The end result is what counts and much of the information available at dealers and through web sites is heavily filtered through a miasma of advertising hoopla. "Sound samples" on a website are no better than the end speakers on your phone or computer and a decent sound engineer can mike up anything to sound superb.

A lot of mechanical musical components do not age all that gracefully for any instrument- though well cared for items which were great when new will still probably be ...great- though probably in need of fine tuning/voicing to reestablish that greatness. There are clearly once superb instruments which have great nostalgia value but which are no longer the shining beacons of excellence they once were- even with extensive (and probably very pricey) work.

The only caveat is that resale, in the fullness of time should you do so, will be affected by the perceived value as represented by the aforementioned hoopla and that will be pretty much independant of how it sounds.

Thanks for your detailed response! It’s a great reminder to focus on the end result rather than just the brand or the hype. What my ears like, is the best reed, I guess.

 

[Pipemajor]

focus on the end result rather than just the brand or the hype. What my ears like, is the best reed

I'll second that!!

 

[SteveBox]

This other discussion has no replies yet, but it is asking about the Czech Harmonikas reeds and how they compare to Italian reeds. I can't answer this question, but I was curious to look at the Harmonikas website...

Like the Italian reed company Voci Armoniche, they offer grades of Tipo A Mano and Export/Super Dural, and even a grade below that called Mechanica. What surprises me is that Harmonikas have THREE grades of A Mano reeds: A Mano Nastrino, A Mano Super, and A Mano Professional. Voci Armoniche has only one A Mano, but then they offer the Blue Star as their highest grade, which another discussion has inquired about.

So many choices of reeds in the higher grades!

If one were ordering a custom accordion (let's say a small one) and could specify any make and grade of reed, how would you know what to specify? Even a small custom accordion will be expensive, so you don't want to skimp on the most important component, but you also don't want to pay a lot more for only a tiny improvement in sound quality. It won't be possible to know what the instrument sounds like until you receive it.

 

[debra]

This other discussion has no replies yet, but it is asking about the Czech Harmonikas reeds and how they compare to Italian reeds. I can't answer this question, but I was curious to look at the Harmonikas website...

Like the Italian reed company Voci Armoniche, they offer grades of Tipo A Mano and Export/Super Dural, and even a grade below that called Mechanica. What surprises me is that Harmonikas have THREE grades of A Mano reeds: A Mano Nastrino, A Mano Super, and A Mano Professional. Voci Armoniche has only one A Mano, but then they offer the Blue Star as their highest grade, which another discussion has inquired about.
...

Names are too often pretty meaningless. "Nastrino" means the reeds are cut from a narrow band of steel. "Super" and "Professional" are completely meaningless terms when it comes to indicating quality for any type of product.

 

[Ventura]

So many choices of reeds in the higher grades!

If one were ordering a custom accordion (let's say a small one)

Let me introduce a wrinkle..

are there reeds that by nature will only be fully realized
in a Tone Chamber type installation ?

are there reeds that by nature will sound their best
in a straight reedblock situation with unfettered and direct airflow

are the differences in the types of air flow and pressure inherent
in an accordion's design as important to the choice of reed as
is the "type" of reed

would putting a set of Gola reeds into an E. Soprani not only be
a waste, but would their tone be compromised ? ruined ?

 

[Ventura]

a second wrinkle, which has to do with the relative
difference in quality between reed-makers

is the machine technology of physically making a reed
a fully realized/matured discipline at this point in time ?

because

if there is in fact a minimal difference between tooling
in use today for the cutting/forming of the DuraLuminum
frame and slot and the cutting/basic fitting of the steel tongue
and the type of rivet and the setting thereof, then it stands to reason
the QUALITY of the steel is the more critical/variable factor

but

there are precious few Steel Mills left that even MAKE spring steel
in a rolling mill and provide it in a size/ribbon and thickness
suitable for watchmakers and reedmakers

so

if literally all Italian reedmakers use the same source for spring steel
and literally all Eastern European reedmakers use Ukraine Steel
(until they run out of stock) then what difference does the brand
of reed make at all ?

except

in cases where the reedmaker goes against conventional market forces
and designs a reedset with a graduating scale design so that every pitch of
reed has a graduated frame and reedtongue which assures a relative
graduated thickness and strength and flexibility throughout the reedset
which should assure the best possible consistency of tone and power

and except

in cases where a reedmaker like Silvio takes the raw coil of spring steel
and re-tempers it in HIS OWN KILN to a specification only HE
knows of through trial and error to be the perfection of his own
empiric research and process
which of course, is a method as dead as the old Master himself..

the reference for this thought/wrinkle lies in my understanding that the
(literally, only modern era actual engineering unique improvement)
convex surface reedtongue is said to be wasted in a straight accordion
and actually needs to be in a tone chamber to be realized fully..
and is for me still by far the more important modern development
of significance (the Blue Star reed having no material difference from
any other high end reed, but simply being a result of focused craft discipline)
and that nevertheless even the Bluestar reed requires an accordion builder to take
into consideration the reed-chamber and air flow as per voci-armoniche guidlines

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Let me introduce a wrinkle..

are there reeds that by nature will only be fully realized
in a Tone Chamber type installation ?

are there reeds that by nature will sound their best
in a straight reedblock situation with unfettered and direct airflow

are the differences in the types of air flow and pressure inherent
in an accordion's design as important to the choice of reed as
is the "type" of reed

would putting a set of Gola reeds into an E. Soprani not only be
a waste, but would their tone be compromised ? ruined ?

Aaah! A series of rhetorical questions and not a wrinkle at all.

Let me throw one or two in for reinforcement:

An accordion maker is starting from scratch to design a high-end accordion. Does the maker start with reeds and design the rest of the accordion around getting the best from those reeds, or does the maker design everything else about the accordion and then select the reeds that best sound good with that design?

Or, does an accordion maker who wants to sell a ton of inexpensive accordions go through the same process as the maker of the high end accordion?

By the way, what is the opposite of irony?
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(Scroll down for the answer)
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(Keep scrolling …)
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The opposite of irony is wrinkly.

 

[SteveBox]

TAM stands for Tipo a Mano and their reed tongues are stamped out of sheets of steel by a machine. The reed tongues are the same type of steel and the same size as the A Mano reeds, which are cut out of a narrow band of steel.

I have encountered a statement like this many times, explaining the difference between TAM and AM reeds. However, this seems to no longer be the case for Voci Armoniche reeds.

Their COMPARATIVE REED TABLE shows that all reed grades are now cut from the same "C100S Steel strip of width 120".

THEY SAY THE FOLLOWING about changes they have made to their A Mano reeds:

Crafting process:​

All production phases of the reed parts, tongue and plate, are carried out and controlled with particular care. The reed tongue is realized from the strip (nastro) 120 mm wide of first quality harmonic steel, instead of the narrowest strip (nastrino) 8 mm wide: for this reason, unlike our previous a mano reeds, the section of the side edges of the square base of the reed tongue is not blue. Of course, the metallurgical and mechanical characteristics of the harmonic steel are the same, because the steel is the exactly the same: it is only the format that is different. We have chosen to use the 120 mm strip to give the a mano reed tongue, and consequently our a mano reeds, higher levels of quality than those achievable with the narrowest steel strip of 8 mm. ​

VA claims they have improved their A Mano reeds this way. So what to make of this, if anything?

 

[debra]

I have encountered a statement like this many times, explaining the difference between TAM and AM reeds. However, this seems to no longer be the case for Voci Armoniche reeds.
...
VA claims they have improved their A Mano reeds this way. So what to make of this, if anything?

The width of the steel band is irrelevant for the quality of the reeds. What is important is the direction of the reed tongues versus the steel band. For a mano reeds the reed tongues are cut lengthwise when cut from an 8mm narrow band of steel. If they still do the same with a mano reeds when cutting them from the 120mm wide band then the quality is the same. However, when the reed tongues are cut at a 90 degree angle (which is what they state for their "blue star" reeds then the strength of the reeds becomes different. (For "blue star" it may not be important because they do go through another heat cycle, but for other a mano reeds it makes a difference, making them essentially the same as tipo-a-mano reeds.

 

[dak]

f they still do the same with a mano reeds when cutting them from the 120mm wide band then the quality is the same.

"The same" is something that scares me as an engineer. The thing with the blue sides is that the reed material is hardened as a thin strip, with the hardening side effects affecting the reed symmetrically. How much does that matter? I have no idea. But I wouldn't have the audacity to state it doesn't matter at all without extensive testing.

 

[debra]

"The same" is something that scares me as an engineer. The thing with the blue sides is that the reed material is hardened as a thin strip, with the hardening side effects affecting the reed symmetrically. How much does that matter? I have no idea. But I wouldn't have the audacity to state it doesn't matter at all without extensive testing.

What I meant to say is that what's important is whether the length of the reed tongue is in the direction of the length of the steel coming off the roll. The way a roll of steel is made may cause the steel to have different strength or "spring" properties in different directions. So my interpretation is that if you want to make the best possible reeds you cut them lengthwise from the roll, as done with a mano reeds that come from a narrow strip of steel. I'm not a metallurgic expert but I wouldn't be surprised that reed makers choose a different direction for tipo-a-mano and a-mano reeds in order to make them sound differently. Maybe an expert can comment...

 

[tcabot]

You're overthinking it fellas.

Let's go back to basics.

Try making a reed out of 6-8mm steel strip. Now try making one out of a 500mmx1000mm sheet. Which one's a lot faster? Cheaper per sq cm to by wide roll, but by the time you've cut the reed out of a wide sheet you really start regretting not spending that extra few £ on a narrow roll, because each reed now wastes extra time to cut out and you're wasting more steel.

Historically, when reeds were made by hand, you'd buy a strip of steel to cut them manually. For a stamping machine this is less important, so just get as wide a roll as you can fit into the machine.

These days it's all marketing hype - the presence of a blued side, or lack of it. I suspect that TAM stuff is intentionally produced at lower quality than could be done, and there's definitely less time going into their set-up.

 

[tcabot]

An accordion maker is starting from scratch to design a high-end accordion. Does the maker start with reeds and design the rest of the accordion around getting the best from those reeds, or does the maker design everything else about the accordion and then select the reeds that best sound good with that design?

If you're talking custom work, then for buttons, start with the reeds and design the box around them, otherwise the dang things won't fit into it
For PA, start with the keyboard, and that gives you the minimum box height, then design the box around the chosen reed size.

 

[SteveBox]

From their description, it would appear that the only difference TODAY between the Voci Armoniche TAM and AM reeds is the shape of the reed. The TAM reed is more trapezoid, the AM reed is a little more rectangular. Otherwise, they are both hand-finished and cut from the same wide steel strip. No mention is made as to whether the AM reed is cut out in a different orientation.

Does the small shape difference make a difference in the sound?

VA Tipo a Mano Reed

VA A Mano Reed

 

[dak]

From their description, it would appear that the only difference TODAY between the Voci Armoniche TAM and AM reeds is the shape of the reed. The TAM reed is more trapezoid, the AM reed is a little more rectangular. Otherwise, they are both hand-finished and cut from the same wide steel strip. No mention is made as to whether the AM reed is cut out in a different orientation.

Does the small shape difference make a difference in the sound?

VA Tipo a Mano Reed

VA A Mano Reed

It requires stiffer steel (with regard to the bending direction) to reach the same frequency, everything else being equal. That's because it is up against larger air resistance and has a larger moment of inertia to work with.