Advanced musician asks: piano or button PA or CBA
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I also came from piano at an early age, through various musical instruments to PA about 30 years ago, then about 8 years ago got my first CBA, a 3 row French Maugein. I persevered for a while, then went back to the PA as I found that my fingers were being tied in knots. The one thing no one has mentioned yet is that, to play a simple scale on the PA, there is only one fingering method. Just check on here for fingerings for CBA and see how many variations come up!!. Also playing up the scale and back down don't necessarily use the same fingers on the CBA.
Then come the 4 and 5 row CBAs where the 4th and 5th rows are repeats of the 1st and 2nd rows in order to make the fingering easier, which it does, but then brings up the question of which row to play the note on. Much easier on the PA as you had a choice of one!.
I would say that, if you had a thorough grounding in piano, then the CBA would be more difficult to transfer to than if you had limited or no experience of PA, which would be more like just learning to play a new instrument using your existing musical knowledge.
I would add that, later I then went back to the CBA and bought a 4 row Paolo Soprani and then a Roland electronic CBA, which I am now committed to staying with, although I also have the odd PA lurking in the background, but they don't get used.
After a good few years on the CBA ( admitted I'm not as committed/dedicated , as some on here), I still struggle with the fingering when playing a piece which I played on the PA without problems.
On a slightly different tack, whichever version you choose, I can heartily recommend the Roland V accordions, as you can play whichever genre of music you chose. You can chose which type of accordion you wish to play and even switch to freebass, of multiple types just by pressing a few buttons
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So many questions, so many answers
Then come the 4 and 5 row CBAs where the 4th and 5th rows are repeats of the 1st and 2nd rows in order to make the fingering easier, which it does, but then brings up the question of which row to play the note on. Much easier on the PA as you had a choice of one!.
I would say that, if you had a thorough grounding in piano, then the CBA would be more difficult to transfer to than if you had limited or no experience of PA, which would be more like just learning to play a new instrument using your existing musical knowledge.
I would add that, later I then went back to the CBA and bought a 4 row Paolo Soprani and then a Roland electronic CBA, which I am now committed to staying with, although I also have the odd PA lurking in the background, but they don't get used.
After a good few years on the CBA ( admitted I'm not as committed/dedicated , as some on here), I still struggle with the fingering when playing a piece which I played on the PA without problems.
On a slightly different tack, whichever version you choose, I can heartily recommend the Roland V accordions, as you can play whichever genre of music you chose. You can chose which type of accordion you wish to play and even switch to freebass, of multiple types just by pressing a few buttons
.So many questions, so many answers
Walker
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@Pipemajor - a voice of reason and balance. Respect.
Regarding one of your questions:
The original Roland V Accordions needed an external speaker. Later incarnations added the speakers to the instrument, so if you get a new one (Fr1x, Fr4x, or Fr8x) you will have the speakers. If you are looking at a used one, you will have to check. I think the small Roland CBA (Fr1xb) would be a great choice, and you could always buy a "beater" CBA and/or PA to knock around with.
I started out on PA, not even knowing that CBA existed, or free bass for that matter. Knowing what I know know I may have picked CBA becsuse it's cooler but I feel no reason to switch now, as I am limited more by skill than keyboard. Btw, does anyone make a "finto" PA that looks like a CBA for that reverse coolness factor?
Good luck!
The original Roland V Accordions needed an external speaker. Later incarnations added the speakers to the instrument, so if you get a new one (Fr1x, Fr4x, or Fr8x) you will have the speakers. If you are looking at a used one, you will have to check. I think the small Roland CBA (Fr1xb) would be a great choice, and you could always buy a "beater" CBA and/or PA to knock around with.
I started out on PA, not even knowing that CBA existed, or free bass for that matter. Knowing what I know know I may have picked CBA becsuse it's cooler but I feel no reason to switch now, as I am limited more by skill than keyboard. Btw, does anyone make a "finto" PA that looks like a CBA for that reverse coolness factor?
Good luck!
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I also have an extensive background in music, and my music degree required a basic level of piano proficiency. But my main instrument was classical guitar. I also played the lute and viols (both of whose relative tunings are almost identical to guitar). Currently my focus is the accordina, which is CBA tuning.
I think that CBA fingering is the way to go, but with a major caveat.
In standard musical notation, notes that are higher on the staff sound higher in pitch than notes that are lower on the staff. There is a similar directionality on the piano— notes to the right are always higher than notes to the left. Musical pitch on the staff and on the piano is basically a "straight line" either up or down. String instruments are a little different, but similar enough, in that they have the same "straight line" of pitch when sticking to one string, and (usually) the adjacent strings are arranged in a "straight line," going higher or lower in a consistent direction. For example, a guitar player generally knows that as his left hand plays notes that are closer to his feet (either on one string, or moving to a different string) the pitch gets higher (exceptions to this are possible).
CBA and PA accordions share this "straight line" idea in that (in the right hand at least) the right hand notes that are closer to your head are lower sounding than the notes that are closer to your feet. But whereas on PA the next higher note is always some number of steps in the exact same direction, the CBA zigzags to accomplish it. As a result, depending on how you have notation, pitch, and physical movement "mapped in your head/body," the notes can seem like they are going in the "wrong direction" (in a basic instinctual sort of a way).
I imagine that this could be described better by someone else. But I hope that it at least makes some sense.
I think that CBA fingering is the way to go, but with a major caveat.
In standard musical notation, notes that are higher on the staff sound higher in pitch than notes that are lower on the staff. There is a similar directionality on the piano— notes to the right are always higher than notes to the left. Musical pitch on the staff and on the piano is basically a "straight line" either up or down. String instruments are a little different, but similar enough, in that they have the same "straight line" of pitch when sticking to one string, and (usually) the adjacent strings are arranged in a "straight line," going higher or lower in a consistent direction. For example, a guitar player generally knows that as his left hand plays notes that are closer to his feet (either on one string, or moving to a different string) the pitch gets higher (exceptions to this are possible).
CBA and PA accordions share this "straight line" idea in that (in the right hand at least) the right hand notes that are closer to your head are lower sounding than the notes that are closer to your feet. But whereas on PA the next higher note is always some number of steps in the exact same direction, the CBA zigzags to accomplish it. As a result, depending on how you have notation, pitch, and physical movement "mapped in your head/body," the notes can seem like they are going in the "wrong direction" (in a basic instinctual sort of a way).
I imagine that this could be described better by someone else. But I hope that it at least makes some sense.
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Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Pipemajor,
I'm with you!
I also feel (purely speculatively) that the CBA is technically more like a guitar (where there are potentially a number of alternative fingerings/options for achieving the same melody) than a piano which chiefly has only one.
When playing, this multiplicity of options would surely be distracting?
No doubt, once mastery is achieved, this would no longer matter, as the player would settle into a routine of preferred options ( subconsciously, automatically discarding the others). Getting there is the difficulty!
I'm with you!
I also feel (purely speculatively) that the CBA is technically more like a guitar (where there are potentially a number of alternative fingerings/options for achieving the same melody) than a piano which chiefly has only one.
When playing, this multiplicity of options would surely be distracting?
No doubt, once mastery is achieved, this would no longer matter, as the player would settle into a routine of preferred options ( subconsciously, automatically discarding the others). Getting there is the difficulty!
4thpage
Member
I’ve read that article. Yes, lots of great information; so thank you for suggesting it.
Exactly! The coolness factor!
Oh yes…I decided right away I wanted nothing to do with a diatonic! I think I would drive myself crazy.
That’s good to hear!
Seriously! PAs are everywhere and CBAs seem to all be locked away in basements and pawn shops or something.
This is an interesting idea…about the spacing, and about the foundational piano keyboard skills or lack thereof. Speaking of playing with other musicians, the near-effortless transposition on CBA is appealing for that reason as well.
Good to hear that confirmation of what I was thinking!
Gotcha
That’s a very good point I hadn’t really thought of. I’d read about quints, but didn’t consider how that might be a nice addition/continuation of Stradella one day.
I see what you mean…especially in playing folk music vs classical.
Excellent illustration!
That is certainly how I came into this discussion, but my mind is being opened to the idea of the PA. CBA just looks too cool, though!
4thpage
Member
This is one frustration I’m having already, just in the researching of the topic. There seem to be several fingerings for the same things on CBA, where—as you say—PA has a fairly set technique/fingering pattern. But! The different fingerings for different keys (all of which I had to learn for my piano proficiency in grad school) seem so daunting to me!
A valid consideration to be sure. I wonder if this is one of those things that comes with practice and proficiency, the way alternate fingerings on wind and string instruments (or slide positions in my case on trombone) make things easier and more efficient once you’ve learned to use them. Granted, I don’t know if I would ever get to that level of comfort and ease on the CBA, so maybe that makes PA a better choice from that particular aspect.
Yep!
Congrats on your persistence and perseverance!
I don’t know if I’ll ever have the money for one of those!
I appreciate it!
Do you think you’d have better luck on CBA? Do you feel like your limitations come from playing in less comfortable keys on the PA, something CBA might have made easier?
No, you explained it well; and I know exactly what you mean. On trombone, because of the way brass instruments work off the overtone series (i.e. the notes from bottom to top in a single slide position go fundamental-octave-fifth-octave-third-fifth etc. right up the overtone series), going up a two-octave Bb major scale for instance uses positions 1-6-4-3-1-4-2-1-3-4-3-1-#2-2-1. So that concept makes sense to me. Thanks for pointing it out though!
4thpage
Member
Getting there is the difficulty indeed, and I don’t know if I will ever devote the hours and years of practice to learning accordion that I have to learning trombone for the last 30 years. Granted, I’m also not trying to play accordion professionally the way I do trombone (military band). I just want to have some fun and sound tolerable while doing it.Pipemajor,
I'm with you!
I also feel (purely speculatively) that the CBA is technically more like a guitar (where there are potentially a number of alternative fingerings/options for achieving the same melody) than a piano which chiefly has only one.
When playing, this multiplicity of options would surely be distracting?
No doubt, once mastery is achieved, this would no longer matter, as the player would settle into a routine of preferred options ( subconsciously, automatically discarding the others). Getting there is the difficulty!
Don't panic!
The point about there only being one way of fingering a piano keyboard simply isn't true - ask someone that plays (at a decent level) the organ, harpsichord or piano. This misconception probably comes from a modern (ish) system based on using all fingers in a certain way to achieve legato that is the ideal for romantic music. If you look at when keyboards were king before orchestras were everywhere (up to about Bach) the standard fingering was very different indeed to achieve detaché (or at least slightly less legato than a romantic legato) as the ideal was clarity in polyphonic music.
The good news is the older fingering based on using 2,3 and 4 mostly, makes this sort of music much easier to play, and applying the same principles on a CBA is to 'welcome an old friend'. I've always had at the back of my mind a notion that the fear of the CBA keyboard actually comes from piano players that have had a narrow exposure to one system of fingering or been taught in a very dogmatic way with romantic fingering scale books, hannon exercises or other forms of digital torture. These are not a natural use of the hand for an ocean of keyboard music.
The thing I've found fascinating about the 5 row CBA (as a life long piano player) is all keys are equal - scary, but liberating! Accordion people seem to favour clean playing too that is well articulated from Folk to Jazz to Classical - so early fingering is great to add to the mix.
Burn the scale books and read/watch below as these have got far more in common with the accordion than a romantic piano!
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In my opinion that should be the primary reason for engaging in any activity which is a hobby and not a professionGetting there is the difficulty indeed, and I don’t know if I will ever devote the hours and years of practice to learning accordion that I have to learning trombone for the last 30 years. Granted, I’m also not trying to play accordion professionally the way I do trombone (military band). I just want to have some fun and sound tolerable while doing it.
4thpage
Member
Are you saying to take comfort in knowing a dogmatic insistence on "proper" piano fingerings isn't necessary on PA, or that CBA is so appealing because, like keyboarding in Baroque times, CBA doesn't need one to learn a prescribed system so necessarily? Either way is encouraging!
Think I'm saying something more subtle I hope. I'd suggest have a read up on fingerings first, it's interesting, honestly!
SteveBox
Well-known member
Maybe it should be mentioned that for the beginner, there is more than the choice of PA, CBA-C, or CBA-B. When it comes to picking a specific instrument, there is the obvious choice of note range and number of basses, and for the CBA, whether to choose 3, 4, or 5 rows of treble buttons. What many not be so obvious is that each of these instruments come in variants that have different size keyboards or buttons.
There is the full-sized PA keyboard that most adults play, but also ones with narrower keys, that may be more comfortable for those with smaller hands.
For the CBA, my observation is that there are instruments with 14-15mm diameter buttons and a button spacing that is the same as on a diatonic melodeon, and those with 16-17mm diameter buttons and a wider spacing. I don't know that this has anything to do with hand size. The CBA in my profile photo has the smaller buttons. Most of the big black Italian CBAs you see have the larger buttons.
Also, there are two different cabinet (box) designs for CBAs. On a CBA, all of the notes are distributed across 3 rows, so correspondingly, accordion cabinets designed specifically for a CBA use three rows of pallets (reed values). For the same note range, these will be deeper (front to back) and shorter (top to bottom) than a PA cabinet, which has the notes distributed across two rows of pallets (one for the white keys, one for the black keys). However, some manufacturers that offer the same model in both PA and CBA versions use the PA cabinet for the CBA version as well. You can recognize these CBAs because they are shallower (front to back) and longer (top to bottom) than a "proper" CBA. My impression is that this type of CBA usually has the larger buttons.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with either design, but I think it is good to be aware of these differences, before you decide on your dream instrument. For starting out, either button size will do.
There is the full-sized PA keyboard that most adults play, but also ones with narrower keys, that may be more comfortable for those with smaller hands.
For the CBA, my observation is that there are instruments with 14-15mm diameter buttons and a button spacing that is the same as on a diatonic melodeon, and those with 16-17mm diameter buttons and a wider spacing. I don't know that this has anything to do with hand size. The CBA in my profile photo has the smaller buttons. Most of the big black Italian CBAs you see have the larger buttons.
Also, there are two different cabinet (box) designs for CBAs. On a CBA, all of the notes are distributed across 3 rows, so correspondingly, accordion cabinets designed specifically for a CBA use three rows of pallets (reed values). For the same note range, these will be deeper (front to back) and shorter (top to bottom) than a PA cabinet, which has the notes distributed across two rows of pallets (one for the white keys, one for the black keys). However, some manufacturers that offer the same model in both PA and CBA versions use the PA cabinet for the CBA version as well. You can recognize these CBAs because they are shallower (front to back) and longer (top to bottom) than a "proper" CBA. My impression is that this type of CBA usually has the larger buttons.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with either design, but I think it is good to be aware of these differences, before you decide on your dream instrument. For starting out, either button size will do.
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Dingo40
Been here for ages!
If we haven't already turned 4thpage off with our exposition of the bewildering variety of accordions and their keyboards, this further revelation concerning fingering options should seal the deal!
SteveBox
Well-known member
But we haven't yet told him about the British and Irish accordions which are both chromatic and diatonic.If we haven't already turned 4thpage off with our exposition of the bewildering variety of accordions and their keyboards, this further revelation concerning fingering options should seal the deal!
4th Page said:
"Do you think you’d have better luck on CBA? Do you feel like your limitations come from playing in less comfortable keys on the PA, something CBA might have made easier?"
No, to be honest, I'm not sure I'd be anywhere different if I had started on CBA. I play folk/traditional so limitations I have are all in my mind, rather than fingers. I don't go for the speedy technical virtuosity or the heavy two handed classical, so I believe whether I play PA or CBA is a moot point. The biggest advantage I see with CBA is that I could buy a Fr1 rather than Fr4 in CBA.
"Do you think you’d have better luck on CBA? Do you feel like your limitations come from playing in less comfortable keys on the PA, something CBA might have made easier?"
No, to be honest, I'm not sure I'd be anywhere different if I had started on CBA. I play folk/traditional so limitations I have are all in my mind, rather than fingers. I don't go for the speedy technical virtuosity or the heavy two handed classical, so I believe whether I play PA or CBA is a moot point. The biggest advantage I see with CBA is that I could buy a Fr1 rather than Fr4 in CBA.
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
What of the Steirische accordions
Walker
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