Advanced musician asks: piano or button PA or CBA

[Walker]

@4thpage - you must go with what your heart desires. Don't worry about the CBA vs. PA debate. You already know my opinion. It's hard work and dedication that makes the difference to being good on either system. Find a button accordion and enjoy it. Sounds like if you chose a piano accordion you would constantly think the grass was greener on the other side, and that is no way to start your adventures in accordionland.

 

[NickC]

I had some piano experience before picking up the accordion, so I chose PA and played it for several years. I have since switched to CBA.
I'm not a great player by any means, and I have A LOT to learn.

Before I played the accordion, I had 4 years of semi-formal piano classes in college, in addition to just 'noodling' around for a few years before that. I knew the chord shapes and scale fingerings, I could play tunes and 'trick' non-musicians into thinking I could improvise. But I was never a student of the piano. In the end, I plan on playing the accordion for a long time. The way I see it, spending a year or two to match my meager piano playing skills isn't too long of a learning curve. If I studied piano seriously since I was 4, I might have a different perspective. Then again, I studied strings (cello and bass) for 20 years before switching my focus to the accordion, so I guess we have to follow where the music takes us.

At this point, I am much more comfortable on the CBA, even though there are things that I can do better on the PA.

Beautiful music has been played on both, and each musician connects with a different instrument. My major in college was bass. So there were a lot of discussions about French bow versus German bow. There were pros and cons to each, but I wouldn't say that they were universal. My 'pro' could have been another person's 'con'. It was more about preferences and musical goals.

What would you chose if you didn't have any piano background and there were an abundance of CBAs in the US? I know these are huge factors that can't be totally ignored, but it might be a good exercise.

 

[Ffingers]

"...you must go with what your heart desires."

"...so I guess we have to follow where the music takes us."

A couple of true philosophers giving us the best of their thoughts.

Lucky us

 

[Tom]

Tom, you are a breath of fresh Lake Michigan air!

Thanks Walker! The lake is a huge inspiration for me as I hear it pretty much 24/7, especially in the winter with the heavy surf. I think often of how I can record that sound and make a backing track I can play along with, maybe with some of Jerry's magic.

 

[losthobos]

Worry first wether it's got a big enough lung and sweet responsive reeds....
You sound like your capable of getting a song out of anything so I'd certainly be concentrating one the tone of the instrument rather than the technicalities

 

[SteveBox]

As we've mentioned Steirsche accordions a couple of times, look what you can do with one:

 

[Ffingers]

...or two, even

 

[4thpage]

Think I'm saying something more subtle I hope. I'd suggest have a read up on fingerings first, it's interesting, honestly!

So I did go and read that article. You’re right, it is such a different concept than ”modern” piano technique, holy cow! I’m traveling this weekend, but once I get home, I’m going to have to try some of these fingering suggestions on my piano and see what it feels like.

Also, there are two different cabinet (box) designs for CBAs. On a CBA, all of the notes are distributed across 3 rows, so correspondingly, accordion cabinets designed specifically for a CBA use three rows of pallets (reed values). For the same note range, these will be deeper (front to back) and shorter (top to bottom) than a PA cabinet, which has the notes distributed across two rows of pallets (one for the white keys, one for the black keys). However, some manufacturers that offer the same model in both PA and CBA versions use the PA cabinet for the CBA version as well. You can recognize these CBAs because they are shallower (front to back) and longer (top to bottom) than a "proper" CBA. My impression is that this type of CBA usually has the larger buttons.

Very interesting about the different cabinet sizes. That, I wasn’t aware of. Thanks for the knowledge!

If we haven't already turned 4thpage off with our exposition of the bewildering variety of accordions and their keyboards, this further revelation concerning fingering options should seal the deal!

Not to worry, the bewilderment is why I’m here!

But we haven't yet told him about the British and Irish accordions which are both chromatic and diatonic.

Say what now? I am somewhat of an obsessive researcher when it comes to new topics like this. However I have not yet come across accordions that are at the same time chromatic and diatonic!

4th Page said:

"Do you think you’d have better luck on CBA? Do you feel like your limitations come from playing in less comfortable keys on the PA, something CBA might have made easier?"

No, to be honest, I'm not sure I'd be anywhere different if I had started on CBA. I play folk/traditional so limitations I have are all in my mind, rather than fingers. I don't go for the speedy technical virtuosity or the heavy two handed classical, so I believe whether I play PA or CBA is a moot point. The biggest advantage I see with CBA is that I could buy a Fr1 rather than Fr4 in CBA.

This is a good point. I’ve begun looking at some sheet music for some folk/traditional type stuff, and you’re right: I don’t know that RH finger technique is going to be a huge issue…at least not until I convince myself I should try more advanced stuff.

What of the Steirische accordions

And also these I have not come across yet!

Find a button accordion and enjoy it. Sounds like if you chose a piano accordion you would constantly think the grass was greener on the other side, and that is no way to start your adventures in accordionland.

This is good advice, although I am beginning to feel daunted by the lack of CBAs in America; and your and others’ advice to not sweat the choice so much is making me thing more about PA. Maybe I just need to be patient, though.

Before I played the accordion, I had 4 years of semi-formal piano classes in college, in addition to just 'noodling' around for a few years before that. I knew the chord shapes and scale fingerings, I could play tunes and 'trick' non-musicians into thinking I could improvise. But I was never a student of the piano. In the end, I plan on playing the accordion for a long time. The way I see it, spending a year or two to match my meager piano playing skills isn't too long of a learning curve. If I studied piano seriously since I was 4, I might have a different perspective. Then again, I studied strings (cello and bass) for 20 years before switching my focus to the accordion, so I guess we have to follow where the music takes us.

And my level of piano skill is even less than that! So you’re right: perhaps the work I would need to put in to learning CBA wouldn’t be too overwhelming to reach the level of my current piano skills.

What would you chose if you didn't have any piano background and there were an abundance of CBAs in the US? I know these are huge factors that can't be totally ignored, but it might be a good exercise.

I love that question! And in that case, I would definitely choose CBA. But you’re right, the lack of CBAs is tough to ignore. Maybe I just need to be a little patient, though.

Worry first wether it's got a big enough lung and sweet responsive reeds....
You sound like your capable of getting a song out of anything so I'd certainly be concentrating one the tone of the instrument rather than the technicalities

This is great advice, but I am afraid I am going to end up having to buy something over the internet sight-unseen, as I live in an area where there aren’t really any for sale. And that sort of makes me think I should buy from a reputable dealer who checks (should check) instruments out before they sell them (Liberty Bellows, temptrend.ca, etc.).

So that brings up another question: do people have recommendations on a good online retailer of used (or new, I suppose) accordions?

 

[4thpage]

My very last comment, I’ll repeat here as sort of an addendum to my original query. With the severe lack of accordions available (as far as my searching has turned up) in my area, do any of you recommend any particular online retailer of used (or new, I suppose) accordions?

 

[Ffingers]

My very last comment, I’ll repeat here as sort of an addendum to my original query. With the severe lack of accordions available (as far as my searching has turned up) in my area, do any of you recommend any particular online retailer of used (or new, I suppose) accordions?

I have a similar problem.
I contacted a 'reputable' dealer in the UK just yesterday asking specific questions about an instrument that they had advertised on the facebook 'Accordion Buy and Sell' group.
The answer was to look up the same on their ebay advert!
Some 'customer care' Eh?

 

[4thpage]

I have a similar problem.
I contacted a 'reputable' dealer in the UK just yesterday asking specific questions about an instrument that they had advertised on the facebook 'Accordion Buy and Sell' group.
The answer was to look up the same on their ebay advert!
Some 'customer care' Eh?

That’s disappointing. There are a few online shops here in the States that provide really good descriptions and actually restore/repair instruments to resell…or so they say.

 

[SteveBox]

What type of accordion is both diatonic and chromatic? On a diatonic accordion (also called a melodeon), each row of buttons has only the notes of one diatonic scale. For example, a C melodeon can play only the white notes of the piano. There are two notes on each button, selected by the direction of the bellows. A typical one row melodeon would have 10 buttons, giving you 20 notes, a range of about 2 1/2 octaves. You probably knew this already.

Melodeons can have additional rows to play in additional keys, and typically these rows are tuned to keys that are a fifth apart, for example, an A/D/G three row melodeon. However, Irish musicians generally prefer a two row melodeon tuned to keys that are a half-step apart. For example, B/C and C#/D are the most popular. By playing across the rows, you have all of the notes of the chromatic scale. So these instruments are diatonic on the row and chromatic across the rows.

These diatonic/chromatic accordions have a very different playing technique compared to a CBA. Each key will have a different zig/zag pattern across the two rows of buttons and a different push/pull pattern to the bellows. (However, Irish music is usually limited to a few keys, so you don't have to learn all 12 patterns.) They cannot easily transpose like a CBA, and the ability to play chords is limited (as some of the notes may not be on the same bellows direction). Also, the diatonic bass is very limited.

So why would anyone want to play such a crazy system? I think the answer is that, compared to a PA or CBA, the Irish accordion is smaller and lighter (thus very responsive), and because you have two notes on each button (selected by the bellows direction), less finger movement is required to play those fast jigs and reels.

Then there is the British Chromatic with three diatonic rows tuned B/C/C#. These usually have a chromatic Stradella bass and are about as large and heavy as a PA or CBA. I don't know what advantages there are to this system.

 

[4thpage]

What type of accordion is both diatonic and chromatic? On a diatonic accordion (also called a melodeon), each row of buttons has only the notes of one diatonic scale. For example, a C melodeon can play only the white notes of the piano. There are two notes on each button, selected by the direction of the bellows. A typical one row melodeon would have 10 buttons, giving you 20 notes, a range of about 2 1/2 octaves. You probably knew this already.

Melodeons can have additional rows to play in additional keys, and typically these rows are tuned to keys that are a fifth apart, for example, an A/D/G three row melodeon. However, Irish musicians generally prefer a two row melodeon tuned to keys that are a half-step apart. For example, B/C and C#/D are the most popular. By playing across the rows, you have all of the notes of the chromatic scale. So these instruments are diatonic on the row and chromatic across the rows.

These diatonic/chromatic accordions have a very different playing technique compared to a CBA. Each key will have a different zig/zag pattern across the two rows of buttons and a different push/pull pattern to the bellows. (However, Irish music is usually limited to a few keys, so you don't have to learn all 12 patterns.) They cannot easily transpose like a CBA, and the diatonic bass side is very limited.

So why would anyone want to play such a crazy system? I think the answer is that, compared to a PA or CBA, the Irish accordion is smaller and lighter (thus very responsive), and because you have two notes on each button (selected by the bellows direction), much less finger movement is required to play those fast jigs and reels.

Then there is the British Chromatic with three diatonic rows tuned B/C/C#. These usually have a chromatic Stradella bass and are about as large and heavy as a PA or CBA. I don't know what advantages there are to this system.

Thanks for going in to all that! I didn't even consider the added rows being tuned only half-step apart. Simple and brilliant!

 

[CC_PDX]

Don't panic!

The point about there only being one way of fingering a piano keyboard simply isn't true - ask someone that plays (at a decent level) the organ, harpsichord or piano. This misconception probably comes from a modern (ish) system based on using all fingers in a certain way to achieve legato that is the ideal for romantic music. If you look at when keyboards were king before orchestras were everywhere (up to about Bach) the standard fingering was very different indeed to achieve detaché (or at least slightly less legato than a romantic legato) as the ideal was clarity in polyphonic music.

The good news is the older fingering based on using 2,3 and 4 mostly, makes this sort of music much easier to play, and applying the same principles on a CBA is to 'welcome an old friend'. I've always had at the back of my mind a notion that the fear of the CBA keyboard actually comes from piano players that have had a narrow exposure to one system of fingering or been taught in a very dogmatic way with romantic fingering scale books, hannon exercises or other forms of digital torture. These are not a natural use of the hand for an ocean of keyboard music.

The thing I've found fascinating about the 5 row CBA (as a life long piano player) is all keys are equal - scary, but liberating! Accordion people seem to favour clean playing too that is well articulated from Folk to Jazz to Classical - so early fingering is great to add to the mix.

Burn the scale books and read/watch below as these have got far more in common with the accordion than a romantic piano!

https://www.harpsichord.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/nevell.pdf

I agree. I've played piano most of my life and have learned that when you get dogmatic about fingering, you get locked into some bad habits. Fingering is always about context: The questions--where am I on the keyboard, where am I going and how do I get there with the greatest ease, fluidity, efficiency / lack of tension--these should ultimately guide your fingering. Learning a rigid set of fixed "right" fingerings for scales / arpeggios has limited utility since those elements rarely appear in that pure form within the music anyway. I started PA in 2019 and switched to CBA last year and LOVE that endless flexibility of fingering on the fly, following the logic above. If I'm only playing the bottom or top half of a scale, or an altered version, or holding a sustained note (or notes) above or below it, I find that those endless custom re-fingerings come quite naturally / almost automatic on the CBA, but YMMV.

I would just add that having the repeated 4th and 5th row are great, but I find I don't use them all that much and could likely get by with a straight 3 or 4 row.

 

[Ex-squeeze]

Just wanted to say thanks to all for the great discussion here! I just made the jump to CBA C system with a stradella. I picked up my first pa I guess about a year ago or so and just go the last couple months started gearing up to make some solid progress. The bass side makes sense to me but the piano keyboard was pretty awkward. I play a lot of Klezmer on my other instruments so modulating melodies are a plenty.. the CBA made so much more sense to me for that alone. Well I found the unicorn! I picked up an Arpeggio 120 bass c system with 11 registers on the right with a master palm switch and 5 on the left! One owner pristine condition inside and out. Only had to drive about an hour out of my way and got it for about half of what it was worth. Now I just need a Roland Fr1xb for my silent practice EZ

 

[TomBR]

I ...... switched to CBA last year and LOVE that endless flexibility of fingering on the fly, following the logic above. If I'm only playing the bottom or top half of a scale, or an altered version, or holding a sustained note (or notes) above or below it, I find that those endless custom re-fingerings come quite naturally / almost automatic on the CBA, but YMMV.

Yes, yes, yes!

 

[Waldo]

A couple of comments:

Being a CBA player, the "repetitive chord forms" are sufficient reason to go CBA. Especially when chord inversion are considered.

Much is made of the additional fingering complexity associated with CBA. After achieving a certain level of competence, the options afforded by the 2 additional rows of the 5-row CBA cannot be overstated. The trick to incorporating these "extra" rows is as follows:
1) Work out the fingering in order to play the melody.
2) Discover the awkward/difficult fingerings from #1 above.
3) Observe the "sympathetic" buttons that move in concert with your original fingering (#1 above)
4) Modify your fingering when #3 presents an easier transition between pitches.
5) Work with the new (easier) fingering pattern until it becomes the dominate pattern.
6) Appreciate that you now have two ways to play the same phrase/melody, which contributes to improvisational skills at the same time.
About the only shortcoming is when the awkward fingering involves the middle row, which has no duplicate row to go to.

We tend to "go to" whatever it is we initially learn (muscle memory). When I started out (PA first, then move to CBA after more research), I followed the common learning approach of confining my play to the outer 3 rows. After questioning the logic of this method, I went online and observed how accomplished players utilized their keyboards. Not surprisingly, the majority only used the outer 3 rows! A few would occasionally bring the 4th row into play, and only one or two would incorporate the 5th row in regular play. Again, muscle memory.

This observation caused me to rethink my approach to the instrument. I changed from exclusive 3-row (described above) to "centering" (My term, search the forum for more on this idea), wherein, I used the center 3 rows, instead of the outer 3 rows, as my chromatic scale. As long as one learns a tune using only 3 rows, transposition (although I find that most songs sound best when played in the original Key) is maintained. The benefit of "centering" becomes apparent when one begins to utilize the two adjacent rows (1 and 5) for convenience or ease of fingering. Often a pitch, that is the last of a run, falls right under the little finger in row 1, but is a stretch on row 4. The same is true when grabbing a pitch from row 5 keeps the fingering under fingers 2 or 3.
The bottom line......for some, "options" only complicate things, while for others, they simplify things. It all depends on one's approach.

Am I glad I went with the CBA? Absolutely! Am I happy with the "centering" approach? Absolutely! Can I jump back and forth between a 3-row CBA and a 5-row? Not easily, but I have no intention of doing so. Per DeBra's repeated recommendation, stick to one specific instrument for learning purposes. This is good advice.

Lastly, I went thru about half-a-dozen instruments before settling on the two CBAs I currently own (both by the same manufacturer, in order to maintain the same feel). This last statement does not include my most recent purchase, a 3-row diatonic. The likelihood of choosing the best instrument, that is most suitable, on the first try, is minuscule at best. Be prepared to change horses in mid-stream. I'd also recommend starting off small, as one is more likely to pick up a 12 pounder than a 25 pounder. A bigger box can always be had later.

Press on....
Waldo

 

[AccordionUprising]

Obviously hard to add to the smart things said. The most important issue with choosing CBA or piano in the US is availability. It's much harder to find a CBA here, even to try one out to see if it feels interesting. There's surely several hundred piano accordions in various states of playability for every CBA in Anglo North America. Piano accordion will probably be a significantly more affordable undertaking with much more variety to chose from.

Relatedly, it's best to ignore free-bass, unless, like me, your goal is to spend years "searching for" an accordion rather than playing one.

I would agree that the CBA is more like a guitar, with note-relationships being more important than the piano's linear chromatic scale. The guitar teacher and viol de gamba historian who developed the Cipher system for CBA is all about the logic of those systems, very intriguing:

The Cipher for Chromatic Button Accordion_@TheCipher.com

In the end, I'd say if you just want to grab an instrument and play it, then go with a piano accordion. It's easy to see the attraction when CBA players are self-selected enthusiasts, but the piano will be an easier choice in a lot of ways. I have not followed this prudent advice, I spent so long dithering about the right accordion that I wrote a book rather than learning to play. Don't be like me if you want to make music.

 

[JerryPH]

As we've mentioned Steirsche accordions a couple of times, look what you can do with one:

Shoot, if I knew that I could roller skate that well thanks to a Steirische, I'd have been playing one for decades now! LOL

Those two little gals today are approaching 65 years old... this video was done a LONG time ago... lol

 

[Valski]

Shoot, if I knew that I could roller skate that well thanks to a Steirische, I'd have been playing one for decades now! LOL

Those two little gals today are approaching 65 years old... this video was done a LONG time ago... lol

I just checked and those "two little gals" are just 26 years of age currently. Still some way to go before they're 65.