Advice to learn how to use the free bass system.

[Walker]

I think Tom has made an excellent point - have some fun, play the stradella accordion for a while and when you are ready, think about the free bass accordion or keyboard... whatever you prefer.

You know, not everyone wants or needs to play free bass. Some people think it's an utter waste of time because it's not "traditional" and all you really need is just a bit of "oom pah" to bulk-out the tunes. That's okay.

Also, some of the most vociferous critics of free bass are other free bass accordionists who play a different system... who will happily tell you to your face, in a nice (ish) way, that the system you play is a waste of time... not enough notes, wrong layout or type of keyboard etc. That's okay too! However, what really matters is if you can think the process through for yourself and come to a solid conclusion that makes sense to you. I sense @Jaime_Dergut you might not quite be there yet.

For me, I played stradella bass accordion for 30 years before I started teaching myself free bass during Covid, and I chose a small Quint converter (PA) because I wanted a system to build on my stradella skills and I had zero interest in learning new systems from scratch. Plus the type of music I wanted to play (composing/arranging new music with a Celtic flavour, and also playing some Western Renaissance, Baroque, Romantic Era music) was entirely feasible on the instrument I chose. I don't have an extended 47 key PA or 5 octave of free bass - but those things were (and remain) unimportant to me.

All I'm saying is discover what actually matters to you and work from there. No rush.​

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I think Tom has made an excellent point - have some fun, play the stradella accordion for a while and when you are ready, think about the free bass accordion or keyboard... whatever you prefer.​

Is fair enough. I just wonder There is a lot of fun I can have with Stradella and I still haven't exploited its full capabilities. I am just daunted at the huge learning curve of the free bass system, given its price and lack of learning material. But I guess that's an area I shouldn't be sticking my nose into yet.

You know, not everyone wants or needs to play free bass. Some people think it's an utter waste of time because it's not "traditional" and all you really need is just a bit of "oom pah" to bulk-out the tunes. That's okay.​

I feel like we could get the full capabilities of the accordion if converters were more common. I guess some people will not use them all but still, so much potential hidden.

Also, some of the most vociferous critics of free bass are other free bass accordionists who play a different system... who will happily tell you to your face, in a nice (ish) way, that the system you play is a waste of time... not enough notes, wrong layout or type of keyboard etc. That's okay too! However, what really matters is if you can think the process through for yourself and come to a solid conclusion that makes sense to you. I sense @Jaime_Dergut you might not quite be there yet.​

I'm not. I will personally go for whatever is more convenient for me, and is faster to learn. I was told that free bass is a feature for professional musicians only, which was somehow demoralizing.



Here is a wonderful orchestra composed of accordions. Some use piano, some buttons, some might use B or C system, but it doesn't really matter. At the end, they are all playing together to produce majestic music! Watching this today inspired me to just improve my skills further.

For me, I played stradella bass accordion for 30 years before I started teaching myself free bass during Covid, and I chose a small Quint converter (PA) because I wanted a system to build on my stradella skills and I had zero interest in learning new systems from scratch. Plus the type of music I wanted to play (composing/arranging new music with a Celtic flavour, and also playing some Western Renaissance, Baroque, Romantic Era music) was entirely feasible on the instrument I chose. I don't have an extended 47 key PA or 5 octave of free bass - but those things were (and remain) unimportant to me.

All I'm saying is discover what actually matters to you and work from there. No rush.​

Indeed. I also want to play music from the Romantic era. I really don't know if I could ever get my hands into a quint converter (or whatever), but I guess the right accordion will show up, eventually.

I am still concerned about the lack of learning material, especially since learning proper fingering is very important. My best guess is that I can ask my questions here!



On that video, it would make me thing that converters are more commons in bayans. It sounds amazing.

 

[brna]

When I started learning the accordion (a couple of years ago, well into my mature years), the teacher asked me if I wanted to play like a classical accordion or with a melodic bass ("like a piano", she said). I categorically answered that, of course, with a melodic bass, because that's why I bought such an accordion.

Bayan teaching materials include exercises with free bass practically from the very beginning. My head was about to explode from the effort of playing tunes both left and right.

After a year of learning, I found that songs with a melodic bass just don't sound as good as with a Stradella bass. You just can't play chords that powerfully with a melodic bass.

Now I mainly play free bass on songs where the accompaniment includes a rich bass line and more jazzy harmonies, e.g. with augmented or altered chords.

 

[dak]

After a year of learning, I found that songs with a melodic bass just don't sound as good as with a Stradella bass. You just can't play chords that powerfully with a melodic bass.

Most definitely when we are talking about a "Master" registration. Playing "Oom pah" style with free bass is not just significantly harder because of the constant jumping, you cannot play in a similarly staccato style because fewer notes are sounding.

But particularly when playing large organ pieces, you should be able to switch between the two in order to emulate switching back and forth between Rückpositiv and Hauptwerk like it is done a lot in typical performances of BWV565. There is also a point in using the "unconverted" bass and counterbass rows for mostly reflecting the pedal bass (without clear octave relation) simultaneously with the 4 converter rows as a second manual.

Of course for many this is just academical, and my own dabblings most certainly are not anywhere where you'd be willing to call them "walking the talk". But sometimes it is nice to dabble. Not nice to others, but if I were thinking of others too much, I'd be playing a different instrument.

 

[Tom]

Is fair enough. I just wonder There is a lot of fun I can have with Stradella and I still haven't exploited its full capabilities. I am just daunted at the huge learning curve of the free bass system, given its price and lack of learning material. But I guess that's an area I shouldn't be sticking my nose into yet.


I feel like we could get the full capabilities of the accordion if converters were more common. I guess some people will not use them all but still, so much potential hidden.


I'm not. I will personally go for whatever is more convenient for me, and is faster to learn. I was told that free bass is a feature for professional musicians only, which was somehow demoralizing.



Here is a wonderful orchestra composed of accordions. Some use piano, some buttons, some might use B or C system, but it doesn't really matter. At the end, they are all playing together to produce majestic music! Watching this today inspired me to just improve my skills further.


Indeed. I also want to play music from the Romantic era. I really don't know if I could ever get my hands into a quint converter (or whatever), but I guess the right accordion will show up, eventually.

I am still concerned about the lack of learning material, especially since learning proper fingering is very important. My best guess is that I can ask my questions here!



On that video, it would make me thing that converters are more commons in bayans. It sounds amazing.

Dear Jaime, I think you are going to just need to buy a Roland! And a nice little stradella bass. In fact where are you in Illinois? Come on up to WI, we’ll play a few tunes and I’ll make you an offer you can’t refuse!

 

[cestjeffici]

Dear Jaime, I think you are going to just need to buy a Roland! And a nice little stradella bass. In fact where are you in Illinois? Come on up to WI, we’ll play a few tunes and I’ll make you an offer you can’t refuse!

And, of course, the Roland gives you both Stadella and free bass in one box!

 

[dak]

And, of course, the Roland gives you both Stadella and free bass in one box!

You make it sound as if that were something special to Roland, but that's exactly what any "converter" accordion does.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Dear Jaime, I think you are going to just need to buy a Roland!

It seems that way, unless I get lucky in facebook market place. But there is no rush, indeed.

And a nice little stradella bass. In fact where are you in Illinois? Come on up to WI, we’ll play a few tunes and I’ll make you an offer you can’t refuse!

I moved to Detroit (unfortunately) but of course I would be glad to take a ferry to WI! I can't wait to hear that offer.

 

[Tom]

It seems that way, unless I get lucky in facebook market place. But there is no rush, indeed.


I moved to Detroit (unfortunately) but of course I would be glad to take a ferry to WI! I can't wait to hear that offer.

Sorry to hear that . Anyway, I’ve taken the Badger ferry and don’t recommend it, it’s got that 1950s “rusty scow” vibe. Better to drive up to Petosky and around. I’ve got a few extra accordions lying around, from “take it, please” to some real beauties > $1000. I’m thinking of building “Tom’s Accordion Shed” (aka man cave) this summer to house them, maybe start restoring and buying/selling again since the unfortunate passing of Jerry S. has left a void in the area.

 

[Pipemajor]

also playing some Western Renaissance,

Never knew they had cowboys in that era?

also playing some Western Renaissanc

 

[John M]

You make it sound as if that were something special to Roland, but that's exactly what any "converter" accordion does.

But The Roland gives you five Converter layouts:
Minor 3rd, Bajan, Fifth, N. Europe, and Finnish in one box.

 

[JKJ]

Of course I was talking about cheap digital keyboards, just to train long enough in order to use those public pianos!

Someone mentioned that to train for piano you really need an instrument with weighted keys. In my experience this is so true. Even though weighted keys don’t have the same feel and response as a real piano they are FAR better than the keyboards with “organ” style plastic keys. Without the "feel" of the piano keys, teaching the fingers can be very difficult. But I guess it depends on the level of proficiency you want. My piano teacher once told me she had several students with only inexpensive electronic keyboards at home and none of them were advancing.

I play a "real" piano, but have two midi keyboard controllers with 88 weighted keys, a Kurzweil Midiboard and a Yamaha KX88, both models used by a number of famous musicians. These are from the '80s I think but are timeless.

Note that keyboard controllers like this do NOT make any sound - they don't include internal synthesizers like all of the cheap electronic keyboards today. The I/O is through midi cables and feed separate synthesizer boxes the output analog signals to an amp and speakers/headphones.

There are probably good all-in-one keyboards available today but my knowledge is decades old!

This is what I have, this photo from my previous house:



In addition, if you want to control sustain and such you need to plug in foot pedals - Yamaha makes some excellent ones with the size and feel of piano foot pedals.

The rack contains three synthesizers, a midi switcher, reverb, amp, and mixer. The studio speakers provide great sound but I almost always used headphones - keeps from bothering others in the family!

But I've had all this in our storage room since we moved to the farm 20 years ago, the music room here won't accommodate much more than the piano and a couch! (and a few small instruments like an accordion, guitar, brass etc.) Some day I'll find a good home for all the electronic stuff..

But bottom line: if you want to learn the piano either go with weighted keys, or better, get a piano! An upright piano doesn't take up much space and can often be found for free.

BTW, the public pianos can be great fun! I found that people will stop and listen to almost anything, often want to chat. I've played at several malls, at a couple of local hospitals, on the street in a small town in Virginia, once in Bath, England, at a coffee house in Ky, in the middle of Mexico, and late one night on the piano in the King's Cross station in London (or maybe it was St Pancras, can't remember).

JKJ

 

[dak]

But The Roland gives you five Converter layouts:
Minor 3rd, Bajan, Fifth, N. Europe, and Finnish in one box.

That's nice in theory because it means that if some accordion gathering someone wants to try your Roland, they can play with the system they are accustomed to.

In practice, nobody brings the documentation to gatherings and people will balk at anybody changing the settings on their instrument. And how many layouts does one person need? "I prefer playing this piece with quint converter and that with C system, but I do that other piece in Bayan": not likely.

 

[dak]

I play a "real" piano, but have two midi keyboard controllers with 88 weighted keys, a Kurzweil Midiboard and a Yamaha KX88, both models used by a number of famous musicians. These are from the '80s I think but are timeless.

Note that keyboard controllers like this do NOT make any sound - they don't include internal synthesizers like all of the cheap electronic keyboards today.

Well, in theory they don't make any sound. In practice you still don't want to practice at night in an appartment building because the weight of the weighted keys has to end up somewhere when striking a key.

 

[saundersbp]

"walking the talk".

That's a relevant phrase when the subject of freebass comes up periodically on here!
If you've made a serious effort to learn it then you can say whether or not its significantly harder based on evidence. My own journey as a late comer to the accordion was to learn freebass first and then dabble with stradella. Personally I find them comparable in terms of difficulty.

this photo from my previous house

Love the lava lamp You don't see them much now in the UK.

I am still concerned about the lack of learning material, especially since learning proper fingering is very important. My best guess is that I can ask my questions here!

There's a lot, and a lot shared here. You are right about the cost though, the instruments are crazily expensive.

 

[Ventura]

I’m thinking of building “Tom’s Accordion Shed”

picturing a country Produce Stand with the lift-up wood awning
to reveal Tomatoes, Apples, Zuccini and Accordions for sale
every Saturday Morning in the Summertime..

who needs the steenkin' Flea Market when you can bring those customers to
your own little corner of heaven at the end of the driveway

 

[Tom]

picturing a country Produce Stand with the lift-up wood awning
to reveal Tomatoes, Apples, Zuccini and Accordions for sale
every Saturday Morning in the Summertime..

who needs the steenkin' Flea Market when you can bring those customers to
your own little corner of heaven at the end of the driveway

You know this is an excellent idea! I would have to be pretty discreet due to zoning and the residential nature of my neighborhood. Growing the produce is a challenge, though, due to lack of both sun and warmth. I am slowly adjusting, though, finding out what survives. This summer I should have a bumper crop of raspberries. Tomatoes and zucchini not so much. A tragedy for us of Italian heritage.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Someone mentioned that to train for piano you really need an instrument with weighted keys. In my experience this is so true. Even though weighted keys don’t have the same feel and response as a real piano they are FAR better than the keyboards with “organ” style plastic keys. Without the "feel" of the piano keys, teaching the fingers can be very difficult. But I guess it depends on the level of proficiency you want. My piano teacher once told me she had several students with only inexpensive electronic keyboards at home and none of them were advancing.

Yes, I noticed that without real piano keys you can't really learn about dynamics or articulation.

That might explain why people think playing piano is hard. The majority just buy a cheap electronic devices and are stuck to it until they realized they don't want to learn anymore. Used, cheap digital keyboards are in abundance on FB marketplace, often by people who say they tried them for an hour and didn't like it. Ha!

But bottom line: if you want to learn the piano either go with weighted keys, or better, get a piano! An upright piano doesn't take up much space and can often be found for free.

I am still thinking about it. The price and availability are very tempting, but I don't really want to switch my time practicing piano when I can invest that time on my accordion, which is what I am really interested.

A sad fact about the place where I currently live (Detroit, Michigan) is that most accordion players have passed away, and I can hardly find anyone around my age playing accordion. Most of them are stick to string or other keyboard, cheap, instruments, and are often snobby in character.

BTW, the public pianos can be great fun! I found that people will stop and listen to almost anything, often want to chat.

Is a lot of fun, and in spring they have a public piano program near my town where they want people to come along and play. Is a nice way to engage with the community. I am still not sure if that's enough reason to get a electronic keyboard. I might as well play my accordion when the weather gets better.

I've played at several malls, at a couple of local hospitals, on the street in a small town in Virginia, once in Bath, England, at a coffee house in Ky, in the middle of Mexico, and late one night on the piano in the King's Cross station in London (or maybe it was St Pancras, can't remember).

Malls here will have their private security guards kicking me out as soon as they find out I am playing inside. Which is sad and annoying because I noticed that in other countries they allow pianists to set up all their stuff and play. Surely, they want total corporate monopoly in public places.

But sometimes I can get away with it by playing my smaller concertina.

 

[Walker]

my own dabblings most certainly are not anywhere where you'd be willing to call them "walking the talk". But sometimes it is nice to dabble.

One of the very nice things about this place is that you get to experience the energy and enthusiasm of others. I am often inspired and influenced musically by many members here. That includes you too dak! Your comments on another thread about working on BWV934 has inspired me to get on and give it a go too. BWV934 may be just a delightful little prelude, nothing over-fancy, but it's really very nice and it stretches me just a little further than the last piece... I guess it's all a process of gradual strengthening, one step at a time.

 

[John M]

. . . how many layouts does one person need?

I don't know much about Free Bass and the left hand layout. I really didn't expect a person to use more than one layout. I thought there were different layouts for different makes of acoustic accordions with Free Bass. If a person, with a Free Bass acoustic, should get a Roland, he could configure the left hand to the same layout that his acoustic has.