B-griff vs C-griff

[Volodymyr]

Hi,

I'm quite curious about the differences between the B-griff (Russian) and the C-griff (European) on the right-hand side (RHS) and on the left-hand side (LHS).

• What is the history of these griffs? In what geographic regions are these griffs used?
• What are the benefits and challenges with these griffs? Is a B-griff easier to play than a C-griff or the opposite is true?
• Is a free bass B-griff with lower notes starting at the bottom of the LHS is more convenient than a C-griff with lower notes starting at the top of the LHS?
• Why these both griffs continue to exist in parallel? Is this a tradition or neither of them is better than the other?
• What are the current trends in demand and production of instruments with a specific griffs? Is one of the griffs becoming more popular worldwide than the other?

Any interesting facts and your experience with the B-griff and the C-griff are welcome!

 

[losthobos]

If you like to play music that gets its flavour from slurring the b3 up to natural 3.(and also the 5 and dom7)... so jazz, blues , gospel etc then the B Griff facilitates this movement well...
I started C Griff way back and to stick to change...but given this knowledge back when I started I'd have chosen B griff

 

[ChromaticPaul]

There even exists another system which I believe is popular in Finland. I could be wrong, but I believe the following video is an example:

 

[Dingo40]

. I could be wrong, but I believe the following video could be an example...

Alf's the man!
Thanks for sharing!

 

[petch]

If anyone knows about the Finnish system I would be really interested in learning more. I'm aware it's the same as the typical C system, just with G on the first row rather than C - but how and why did this come about?

 

[oldbayan]

I find the B-griff more intuitive to play than C! We go from left to right when going up scales and arpeggios. With C-griff fingers get in the way when going up the scale from right to left! The B system looks like a piano keyboard sliced 3 by 3.

 

[John Doe]

"It's all in what you're used to."

 

[SteveBox]

I find the B-griff more intuitive to play than C! We go from left to right when going up scales and arpeggios. With C-griff fingers get in the way when going up the scale from right to left!

I play C-system, and I did not understand this when I first read it. For both C and B systems, your fingers are going DOWN the keyboard when you go UP the scale. I think you are talking about diagonal direction, which can be slanted left-to-right or right-to-left while you are progressing in a downward direction.

As left and right are relative, the directions being referenced are with the accordion in normal playing position. To go up an interval, you move diagonally right or left as well as down.

On a C-system, when you want to move a semitone up, you slant right-to-left. On a B-system, when you want to move a semitone up, you slant left-to-right. It the reverse for whole tones. On a C-system, you would slant left-to-right for a whole tone up interval, and on a B-system, right to left for a whole tone up interval.

Okay, so there is another option for whole tones, when you have enough buttons available in the appropriate direction. On a C-system, you could also move a whole tone up by slanting two positions (two semitones) right-to-left, and on a B-system by slanting two positions (two semitones) left-to-right.

The point is, in playing a scale, you need a sequence of whole tones and semitones. So, you will need to use both types of slant directions with either of these systems, just at different places in the scale or melody. Looking at it this way, I don't see how one can be more intuitive than the other. They are the same system, only mirror images.

Pick one and get used to it! Most beginners probably start out with what others are playing and selling in their area. For contrarians that choose something else, I think it will make little difference.

As for those one-finger slurs, the only difference is which direction you drag your finger.

For further study, consider the system comparison in the attachment below, especially the very last graphic that compares directional movements for semitone, whole tone, and whole+semitone (minor third) intervals. *** This graphic shows an accordion keyboard on its side, so rotate it 90 degrees counter-clockwise so that the right and left slants match the descriptions above !!

Here is a good resource that compares the various accordion systems:

Nydana's Accordion Resources

Here you will find some useful information related to the accordion. Download a chord combination chart for free!

nydana.se

 

[losthobos]

As for those one-finger slurs, the only difference is which direction you drag your finger.

The important difference is you can't slur UPHILL...

 

[petch]

The important difference is you can't slur UPHILL...

use back of finger knuckle/fingernail and you can slur up the stepped keys

 

[losthobos]

use back of finger knuckle/fingernail and you can slur up the stepped keys

Thankyou...I always admire anyone who thinks outside the box... appreciated

 

[SteveBox]

The important difference is you can't slur UPHILL...

use back of finger knuckle/fingernail and you can slur up the stepped keys

A beginner might find a statement like the first one confusing, without more information, which was provided by the second statement. So we are talking about CBAs with a stepped keyboard, and the uphill/downhill is in a perpendicular direction to the keyboard. However, some CBAs have a flat keyboard, so this would not apply to those.

In any case, the human hand is adaptable, so one can usually find a way to do what you want to do, with whatever system you play.

 

[debra]

Hi,

I'm quite curious about the differences between the B-griff (Russian) and the C-griff (European) on the right-hand side (RHS) and on the left-hand side (LHS).

• What is the history of these griffs? In what geographic regions are these griffs used?
• What are the benefits and challenges with these griffs? Is a B-griff easier to play than a C-griff or the opposite is true?
• Is a free bass B-griff with lower notes starting at the bottom of the LHS is more convenient than a C-griff with lower notes starting at the top of the LHS?
• Why these both griffs continue to exist in parallel? Is this a tradition or neither of them is better than the other?
• What are the current trends in demand and production of instruments with a specific griffs? Is one of the griffs becoming more popular worldwide than the other?

Any interesting facts and your experience with the B-griff and the C-griff are welcome!

Just my $0.02...
The history is very closely related to the geographic regions... and the systems that exist besides B and C griff are also geographic (like Finnish system in Finland and "Do2" in some parts of Belgium).
A difference in using B versus C griff not yet mentioned is that because of the difference in how the "diagonals" go the orientation of the hand is different between B and C griff. B griff puts less strain on the wrist when playing high notes and C griff makes it easier on the wrist to play low notes. (Piano accordion puts the least stress on the wrist when you play around the center of the keyboard.)
The Russian free bass B-griff with low notes at the bottom makes it harder to combine playing these low notes with bellows control and therefore you often see players use the Stradella base notes for the lowest octave and the free bass for the higher notes. The mirrored free bass (exists for B griff as well as C griff) makes it easier to play the low notes, but harder to use the highest notes. But in the free bass you don't need the highest notes all that often. (Some may disagree here.)
It's hard to make a whole population change habits, thus people are likely to continue B and C griff for the foreseeable future. New, yet different systems have been invented as well (think of the Reuters/uniform keyboard and the Kravtsov keyboard) and they have just a very small population of followers, and very very few manufacturers willing to make accordions with these keyboards.
So in answer to your last question, I don't see a shift in production and demand between specific griffs, with one exception: more and more people who play B-griff are switching from mirrored B-griff in the free bass to the Russian B-griff with the low notes at the bottom. So mirrored B-griff may eventually disappear, just like small other populations like Do2 are likely to disappear when the last players of such systems die.
But then, the accordion may disappear completely as well when new instruments continue to become more and more expensive at a much faster rate than general inflation. When it reaches the point when too few people can afford a new accordion and the existing accordions reach the point where they can no longer be repaired that may be the end of it...

 

[OuijaBoard]

"""""But then, the accordion may disappear completely as well when new instruments continue to become more and more expensive at a much faster rate than general inflation. When it reaches the point when too few people can afford a new accordion and the existing accordions reach the point where they can no longer be repaired that may be the end of it."""""

I think it won't disappear completely, but I agree with the larger point, and I'm glad you've been raising it lately. I share the concern watching what is occurring.

 

[JerryPH]

My opinion is that B-griff vs C-grifff vs anything else out there... that for 90% of the people it makes no difference. We see musicians with those and other systems doing amazing things with all of them. For the top 10% of the very best players, I'd have a few suggestions though there are cases against my suggestions... lol

- choose 1 system and STICK with it, they are all proven to work well.
- the left hand Free Bass system mirrors your right hand system of choice for ease of learning.

That's about it!

 

[OuijaBoard]

I've read discussions of in which it's been claimed that one layout loans itself more to chromatic music, the other for more diatonic. And I've seen it claimed that one loans itself more to multi-voice chordal playing, the other for single-voice melody playing. And I've seen it claimed that one makes it easier to play with only index, middle, and ring fingers. I can't recall which was claimed which, I think that last one was an opinion that B layout is easier for three-digit play. I play C system with the thumb in the mix, and often the pinkie too, so I don't care.

It's like the other posters have noted--if you spend some time on the 'tube, you'll see that you can zoom around the galaxy and literally do anything with either system. Jazz, classical, folk, anything.

 

[debra]

There is no system better than all other systems... But there is music that is written specifically for one system that is very hard to play on a different system, and even some music that becomes impossible on a different system.
When I was making a quintet arrangement of the French Ballad by Viktor Novikov (a composition that contains "Feuilles Mortes", written for B system solo bayan) I also tried whether I could possibly learn to play that on my C system bayan. I found out that it is absolutely impossible. There are chord+melody combinations (in the right hand) for which I simply cannot position my hand and fingers to make it work. (Yet I can come up with fingering for B system that I can "reach", using my not so small hand, but of course I cannot play that.)
And I have seen piano accordion players struggle with the "very strange" runs in Rondo Capriccioso by Soljetarov, which are not strange at all on a button accordion (B or C system alike). I have occasionally used such strange runs in some of my arrangements, In one of them (Tango pour Claude by Galliano) I added a downward run of E-D-C#-B-A#-G#-G-F-E-D-C#-B-A#-G#-G-F-E-D-C# which is very awkward on piano accordion and which is trivial on a button accordion (a simple run down over 2 rows)...

 

[NickC]

I went back and forth, thinking of the pros and cons, etc. For me, it came down to what music I would be playing and what system the musicians in that genre were using. I play mainly Italian music with a focus on the northern regions. C system was the obvious choice for me, and after I settled on it, I just went with it and didn't really think much about the differences. I don't know why C system is the popular choice of the region and all the music can be played on a B or PA, but it seemed like the best place to start.

 

[vivdunstan]

I am very fond of French musette music, so that was a big factor in me going for C rather than B, knowing how many musette players have C-based boxes. But I also felt that the C system diagonal upward direction for a rising sequence of notes on the right hand - starting from outside, nearest the hand, going inwards - suited me better than B which goes for a similar run from inwards to out. I've baffled my poor husband by trying to explain the differences between C system and B system via diagonals! Fortunately I'm very happy with my choice. Just 3 months into learning my French CBA box with Stradella bass. But it felt like a natural fit from the very first time I played it. And I'm loving it.

 

[ChromaticPaul]

Although not so important for those who possess more natural musical talent than myself, the reason I chose to learn C-Griff over B-Griff is the availability for C-Griff of material (method and exercise books) from which to learn the instrument. I found many choices for C-Griff, but I was not able to find a single B-Griff method book. Still, if you know of any please recommend them here so that others who are considering playing the CBA might consider them when trying to decide between the C-Griff and B-Griff systems. The bottom line for me was, even if the B-Griff system does possess certain playing advantages, what good is it if after a reasonable search I could not find any good books that teach it?

Having said that, I wish to state my admiration for those who possess sufficient musical talent such that they are able to master the instrument without such formal progressive educational material. They seem to get by with just a diagram of note locations and a bunch of popular sheet music. Amazing! All I can say is, I envy their talent.

Essentially I followed the advice given by the now closed Roxy's Music Store in the following video which remains active on YouTube even after the store has formally closed:
Piano Accordionist Learns Chromatic
The Manu Maugain method book recommended in the above video uses in part the proven successful pedagogical approach of presenting the student with a progressive series of unmelodic practice exercises over various ranges of notes and key signatures, exercises that by their unmelodic nature require active reading, thus helping to build both motor memory as well as sight reading skills. When I studied music at the college level where I was formally taught piano, I was assigned Bela Bartok's Mikrokosmos. Also recommended for the same purpose were Czerny's Opus 823 and 599. These are well known and recommended practice exercise books in the piano community that have remained popular over the years at many music conservatories. In my experience Manu Maugain is the only CBA method book that does a good job with this pedagogical approach, and for that reason I am finding it most valuable in learning the chromatic button accordion on my own as a hobby. Of course the Maugain book does contain in addition to fingering exercises many musical practice pieces as well. It wouldn't be much of a method book if it didn't. Also, as recommended by Roxy's Music Store, I am using various Palmer-Hughes lesson, prepratory, and recital books to expand my musical practice repertoire.

On the other hand, many people, especially those learning on their own, detest formal fingering exercises such as are in the Maugain book (as well as the piano books that I mentioned earlier), claiming that they are too tedious and boring. These people prefer instead to focus exclusively on familiar popular songs. In other words, real music. Of course my goal in the end is to play real music. All I can say is, for me to progress I need such formal progressive material to develop sufficient skill in order to play real music. And as I said earlier, if you can learn any musical instrument without doing this, I envy you for your superior natural musical talent.

Also recommended in my college music program was the making of recordings of each practice piece to inspire proper mastery. I am doing this in the following YouTube channel:
My YouTube Channel
My videos are a tool by which I can prove to myself that I am successfully mastering each practice exercise before moving on to the next. It's like playing in front of a teacher. You always play your best in front of your teacher, don't you? On YouTube, because I never know who may be watching, I always try to play my best.

Yes, what I am doing is a lot of work. But the bottom line is, without working in such a manner with formal progressive material, I am not able to learn any musical instrument, piano, guitar, flute, or violin. I need professional advice on how to progressively proceed. I simply do not possess sufficient musical talent to learn to play using just a diagram of the note locations and a bunch of sheet music. Besides, as my YouTube channel demonstrates, I do occasionally make practice work more fun by playing in novel ways, such as with backing tracks, or by playing both parts of a duet.

So, for me, the choice between C-Griff and B-Griff was simply a matter of the availability of material from which to learn to play.

I hope that others who are considering playing the CBA will find my experience helpful both in choosing between C-Griff and B-Griff, as well as in choosing a strategy for learning the instrument.