B-griff vs C-griff

[CC_PDX]

My decision to choose C-griff when I switched over from PA was primarily based on the regional styles associated with it. Local availability was pretty much non-existent for C or B. I used the Roland FX1b as my intro to try out the the fingering before finding a used C box at Petosa.

Being self-taught, I didn't give much thought to the "right" way to fingering (for better or worse), and I use my RH thumb all the time--even on other rows

 

[ChromaticPaul]

...I use my RH thumb all the time--even on other rows

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with using the RH thumb. Just watch Julie Blocher:
Julie Blocher Using RH Thumb
Her thumb is flying all over the place playing notes on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rows, and then occasionally anchored against the frame.

 

[JerryPH]

I am very pro-thumb use on the CBA, and I don't even play a CBA!

 

[stijn82]

I did some kind of comparison between B-system and C-system, after playing 30 years on B-system.

Long story short: I found out is that, in my opinion, C system is really better when it comes to playing diatonic scales if you want to use consecutive fingers (like 1-2-3-4-1-2-3 ), regardless of the key.
This fingering is imho the best if you want to play very fast runs, and to have a good articulation (legato, portato...).

See for instance this: -> this is a C system player, it are just runs in the C scale but every time starting from the next lower note. I studied the fingering in detail and cannot find an equally good fingering on the B system.

I always got stuck on B system with the fact that, for instance, in a scale of C major, the thumb can be used on the B and F note, but not very good on other notes (like D, E, G), unless you do things like 1-2-1 for D-E-F, or play the D on the 4th row and E with thumb.. but this is more difficult than e.g. G-A with the thumb on A on a C-system. Using the thumb for a whole note step (3-1 or 4-1 fingering) is always a bit more difficult on B system, and even impossible from the 2nd row (try for instance G-A: you would need to play the G on 5th row and the A on the 3rd, nobody does that)

Basically, a scale consists of 5 whole tones and 2 semi tones, and from the moment you have 2 consecutive whole tones (C-D-E, F-G-A, G-A-B), the C system gives you more fingering options: 1-2-3, 2-3-4, 3-4-5, 2-3-1, 3-4-1: all possible. Also for instance G-A-B with 3-4-5, using the 5th row: still comfortable on C system.

The B system is more suited for 'overtaking', like G with 3rd finger and A with 2nd finger, but this requires some twisting on the wrist and then you can't use the thumb effectively.

Then there is also the convenience of playing major broken chords on C system, which is used a lot in french musette.

Also I've seen so many world class players on C system( like Bjarke Mogensen, Philippe Thuriot, Christine Rossi, Claudio Jacomucci...) , that I tend to believe that it is an excellent system and all music can be played on it... except of maybe SOME russian pieces that were composed especially for B system, which are usually composed for standard bass so there are multiple voices to be played in the right hand (like french ballad by Novikov... this piece is probably impossible on PA, but fun fact: in Russia they are way more PA players than CBA players).
Most russian pieces for freebass can be played on C system, Bjarke Mogensen even recorded a CD with only russian music (Winter sketches).

I figured out comfortable fingerings for C system, for any scale , starting from any note. you find them in attachment. Easy to try out if you play the C system. Any input on that is greatly appreciated.

Or if anybody could give me equally comfortable fingerings for B system?

 

[Dingo40]

did some kind of comparison between B-system and C-system, after playing 30 years on B-system.

stijn82,
I only play PA, but I found your post very interesting and informative.
It's the first time I've come across a clear explanation offering a sensible advantage of the one system over the other.
Thanks for sharing!

 

[Ffingers]

stijn82,
I only play PA, but I found your post very interesting and informative.
It's the first time I've come across a clear explanation offering a sensible advantage of the one system over the other.
Thanks for sharing!

A beginner's take on this topic (with enthusiastic agreement from his teacher who is pianist/PA player) - the big advantage of the CBA is the absence of any need to learn the kind of standardised fingering which the PA demands: each piece of music dictating where, when and how the fingers are placed.
The 3 row bayan does dictate a degree of formulaic playing, but when there are 5 rows available the "world is your oyster" so to speak.
Watch Galleano, then alexandr hrustevich for examples of the player using the full gamut of options provided by the CBA layout.
Finding out by practice that I can improve my playing by incorporating the use of both thumb and 5th finger where and when they fit best is quite enlightening.
PS. stijn82 - in case you have not seen my previous posts, I am a raw beginner who bought myself an accordion for my 80th birthday last year.
I have learned heaps and heaps about music and about myself in the last 12 months!
Lots of it from the good folk contributing their expertise and knowledge freely on this forum.

 

[EdBouchard]

Just saw this thread. Currently, I’m learning to play B-Griff in both hands. I had to give up playing my wonderful acoustic piano accordion, which had a converter C-Griff free bass. I don’t like stradella, only play free bass. Osteoarthritis arthritis has taken it’s toll on my thumbs. On a chromatic button accordion (CBA), it is much easier to get around without a thumb. The instrument I’ve been fortunate enough to acquire is B-Griff. Have had it about a year now. Can almost play the Bach 2-part Invention in C major and the 3-Part Sinfonia in C. Three piano exercise books that are most helpful are Leo Alfassy’s Blues Hanon, Jazz Hanon, and Boogie Woogie Hanon. He has written little etudes that are fun to play — and listen to. My wife and our pet birds seem to enjoy them. They of course get progressively more difficult. I’m hoping that after another year of practicing I might be ready to start playing in groups again.

 

[EdBouchard]

Hi,

I'm quite curious about the differences between the B-griff (Russian) and the C-griff (European) on the right-hand side (RHS) and on the left-hand side (LHS).

• What is the history of these griffs? In what geographic regions are these griffs used?
• What are the benefits and challenges with these griffs? Is a B-griff easier to play than a C-griff or the opposite is true?
• Is a free bass B-griff with lower notes starting at the bottom of the LHS is more convenient than a C-griff with lower notes starting at the top of the LHS?
• Why these both griffs continue to exist in parallel? Is this a tradition or neither of them is better than the other?
• What are the current trends in demand and production of instruments with a specific griffs? Is one of the griffs becoming more popular worldwide than the other?

Any interesting facts and your experience with the B-griff and the C-griff are welcome!

More specifically, from an ergonomic pov, C-Griff and B-Griff are essentially mirror opposites. On free bass, 4-note chords ‘fall’ right under the fingers. A simple exercise, for instance is to play 7th chords in root position going up (and down) a C major scale. In the left hand play them as a block chord, in the right hand play the same notes as an arpeggio. e.g. on the bass side, play as chords
CEGB
DFAC
EGBD
FACE
etc.

But on the treble side play each note in succession
C, E, G, B
D, F, A, C
E, G, B, D,
etc.

 

[stijn82]

A beginner's take on this topic (with enthusiastic agreement from his teacher who is pianist/PA player) - the big advantage of the CBA is the absence of any need to learn the kind of standardised fingering which the PA demands: each piece of music dictating where, when and how the fingers are placed.
The 3 row bayan does dictate a degree of formulaic playing, but when there are 5 rows available the "world is your oyster" so to speak.
Watch Galleano, then alexandr hrustevich for examples of the player using the full gamut of options provided by the CBA layout.
Finding out by practice that I can improve my playing by incorporating the use of both thumb and 5th finger where and when they fit best is quite enlightening.
PS. stijn82 - in case you have not seen my previous posts, I am a raw beginner who bought myself an accordion for my 80th birthday last year.
I have learned heaps and heaps about music and about myself in the last 12 months!
Lots of it from the good folk contributing their expertise and knowledge freely on this forum.

Great that you're having a good time and learning a lot!

Yes it is true that both CBA systems allow for a 'free' fingering and using of the 5 rows, which is great, so in many respects those systems are very similar and offer an advantage over the PA!

though I don't completely agree with the general assumption that B system and C system are totally equal in their possibilities.

I'm 40 years old and just finished my bachelor degree at conservatory, with a lot of struggles, but I made it. The last 10 years I have seen so many things, and many great young players. Players of 16 year old that did totally amazing things on C system - which means they didn't have the time yet to practice for 10.000 hours to get to that level - so the fact they had a good teacher which also play the C system helped, and the system self didn't seem to impose any limitation.

There never has been done any scientific research on which system is the best, like in which requires less hours of practice, stronger fingers, more or less movement with the wrist, etc...

so I tried to find out if there is any difference, even a very small one... that can be significant if you want to reach the top level.
I tried to figure out whether composers did take any difference into account - do the russian composers compose for B system? do the french composers write for C system? and what about composers that don't play the accordion, or pieces that were written for piano/harpsichord?

I was a bit surprised by my own conclusion: it seems that music that has not been written for a specific system, seems to be a little easier on the C system. Some others have already mentioned that C system seems to be more suitable for diatonic runs and B system seems more suitable for chromatic runs - see for instance https://nydana.se/accordion.html#cbacvscbab ... but in fact almost all music is diatonic by nature! (and with music that has no tonal structure at all, there is no difference between the systems...). Another thing you could try out on C system is the following: try to play C-D-E-F-G with 1-2-3-4-5, then D-E-F-G-A, E-F-G-A-B ... etc.. using all the 5 rows if needed! it turns out that it is always possible, and that the fingers 1, 4 and 5 are almost always in the same comfortable position (C-F-G, D-G-A, E-A-B).. and then you have to put the 2rd and the 3rd finger on the correct note depending on where the semi-tone interval is (E-F)... this is always comfortable too and gives you maximal possibilities to use all the 5 rows and 5 fingers.
On the other hand, I know many B system players that don't use the 4th and 5th row.. and they get stuck at some level. If you play C-D-E with 2-3-4 ..would you use the 4th row to play the D? It doesn't give a real advantage, because D-E requires a spread of your fingers.

So...
traditional French composers (like Andre Astier) -> good playable on C system, but harder on B system.
traditional Russian composers (like Zolotarev, Semyonov) -> good playable on B system, but C system also works well...
modern accordeon composers -> in my opinion a bit easier on C system... because C system is good for diatonic runs (see my fingering for the scales, as well as for (broken) chords)

We all know that Alexandr Hrustevich and other russian/ukrainian players are great... but I have a bit the idea that the russian players also pick the repertoire that suits them...

When I look at the french repertoire, it seems to have lot of harmony in it... which makes the music also very beautiful.
I like for instance Divertimento by Andre Astier... I am studying it, but seems to be harder on B system as well.

look at this talented girl.. she does a really amazing job on B system! Using all 5 rows... but still not very comfortable I would say.



Then look at Christine Rossi, same piece on C system... like even a bit faster and with more ease.



to be honest I think she is better than the russian players... I saw this concert live in Castelfidardo. very special moment, where also Jacques Mornet (her teacher) was present and came on the stage..



and if you think russian music is hard on C system:



another talented player on C system:



or some classical on C system:

Philippe Thuriot speelt

In ‘The Goldberg Variations’ gaan dansers Oskar Stalpaert (Platform-K), Michiel Vandevelde en Audrey Merilus aan de slag met de composities van Bach en de im...

www.youtube.com

So.. though nothing of what I say is scientifically proven, I think I can recommend C system to any player as it seems everything is possible on it...

 

[stijn82]

Just saw this thread. Currently, I’m learning to play B-Griff in both hands. I had to give up playing my wonderful acoustic piano accordion, which had a converter C-Griff free bass. I don’t like stradella, only play free bass. Osteoarthritis arthritis has taken it’s toll on my thumbs. On a chromatic button accordion (CBA), it is much easier to get around without a thumb. The instrument I’ve been fortunate enough to acquire is B-Griff. Have had it about a year now. Can almost play the Bach 2-part Invention in C major and the 3-Part Sinfonia in C. Three piano exercise books that are most helpful are Leo Alfassy’s Blues Hanon, Jazz Hanon, and Boogie Woogie Hanon. He has written little etudes that are fun to play — and listen to. My wife and our pet birds seem to enjoy them. They of course get progressively more difficult. I’m hoping that after another year of practicing I might be ready to start playing in groups again.

so, why not go for a C-griff instrument, as you already know C-griff free bass?

 

[EdBouchard]

the B-Griff CBA I have is a Roland Fr4xb, so I could have converted to C-Griff. However, it was a borrowed instrument. I called a Roland rep to get instructions on how to make the change. I briefly had the free bass in C-Griff but the treble still in B-Griff. Then I decided just to go with B-Griff. It didn’t seem worth the hassle to change it.
If you know one layout, you already have a basic understanding of the other. The ‘shape’ of chords and scales is essentially the same, albeit reversed. For instance, fingering for a C-major 7th in root position (CEGB) is 5 4 3 2 on the B-Griff but 2 3 4 5 on the C-Griff. But the tactile feel, distance relationships of the buttons, and reach are the same. This is the case for all scales and chords.
Because of the ability to easily play 10ths and even 12ths on a CBA, either CBA keyboard gets points over a PA keyboard. If a young person was beginning to take up accordion were to ask, I’d highly recommend a CBA over a PA. The choice of whether B- or C-Griff would in part depend on where they were located. In European countries where most people play C-Griff, go with that. However, they are both quite excellent.

 

[Random Johnny]

This is a fantastic book for B-system players. Definitely recommended. For beginners, intermediate and advanced players.

 

[Random Johnny]

Etude 1 & 2

 

[Random Johnny]

Etude 12

 

[Random Johnny]

Etude 19

 

[Random Johnny]

Accordion sheet music. Scores, notes, partitions for Accordion / Accordeon / Bayan published in Ukraine and Other Countries

music.volod.com.ua

 

[Ikesaccordions]

If you are playing a 4-note minor chord the two middle fingers which are longer than the index and 5th finger are in th natural hand position. For a 4 note major chord in the B system the two middle fingers are toward the edge of the keyboard, and two outer fingers are toward the baffle.
With the C system, the major and minor keyboard chord positions are the reverse of the above scheme.

 

[EdBouchard]

If you are playing a 4-note minor chord the two middle fingers which are longer than the index and 5th finger are in th natural hand position. For a 4 note major chord in the B system the two middle fingers are toward the edge of the keyboard, and two outer fingers are toward the baffle.
With the C system, the major and minor keyboard chord positions are the reverse of the above scheme.

It depends on which pitch. For CM7 on the treble side and bass side of a C-system, yes. But different for BM7. And again different for C#/DbM7. An exercise I like is to play 7th chords on a diatonic scale. E.g.: CM7 Dm7 Em7, FM7, Gdom7, etc. On free bass, play chords both hands. Play ascending and desc arpeggios in the treble on each chord.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

In playing a Tonic chord with 4 notes in the C system the 2 middle fingers are in a natural position on the two adjacent ows of keys, whereas to play the minor 4 note chord, the 2nd and 5th fingers of the hand on that system are toward the middle, perhaps a less natural position, but vice versa the B system when playing a tonic 4 note chord.
Notable that the B system is used mostly in locales where there are more tunes in minor, not to say that it definitively accounts for the prevalence of B system in Belgium, etc.
Bot sure what Ed just said, but I'm sure deciphering iy would be very rewarding.

 

[EdBouchard]

When playing a C major 7 chord C E G B (CM7) on a C-system, assuming using fingers 2 3 4 5 and not 1 (the thumb) if on free bass, and assuming not using the ‘alternate’ 4th row of buttons, it is a “natural position” in that fingers 3 and 4 are usually a bit longer than 2 and 4. And it is quite easy to reach the B with 5. However, relationships of the fingers on the hand to the keyboard change when playing a BM7 chord on a C-system. . It’s still really easy, just maybe not “natural”, if I understand what you mean by that term. Of course, on a B-system, BM7 (B D# F# A#) has exactly the same hand properties.
One exercise is to play diatonic 7th chords in both hands going up and down on each note of a major scale. CEGB (CM7), DFAC ((Dm7), EGBD (Em7), etc….. The finger position changes slightly with each chord. It is equally easy to play on a C-system and a B-system.