Bass, baffled, and bewildered, am I

[BobM]

Have you downloaded a Stradella note chart yet?

BobM.

No, but Ive studied the Cypher chart and its fairly logical and fairly fixed in my head. I remember it as the cycle of fifths with flats down and sharps up, bass, Maj, Min, 7th and Dim chords on their own row, with C/Bass being the third of the scale on the row and Maj7th or leading note down the column and the 6th up the column. I havent worked out what goes beyond the octave on the column, eg the eight repeated notes, but Ill get round to that as and when I need them. I really find both keyboards incredibly logical and wonder why the piano keyboard hasnt been superseded by the button system. I hope Im not offending any PA people, its only a newbies observation.[/quote]


What the ....? :shock:

Youve lost me ....at the first Cycle........I just memorised the chart........for my ackordeen......wow, way to go...... :b

Jarvo[/quote]

I’m sort of getting it Jarvo, “both keyboards”, I think refers to 2 different button type instruments, and there’s a rhetorical question about the Piano keyboard to finish..

BobM.

 

[dunlustin]

There were electronic CBA keyboards in France from about the late 80s - I guess due to the demand from CBA players.
Don't know if that went anywhere.

 

[donn]

I remember it as the cycle of fifths with flats down and sharps up, bass, Maj, Min, 7th and Dim chords on their own row, with C/Bass being the third of the scale on the row and Maj7th or leading note down the column and the 6th up the column. I havent worked out what goes beyond the octave on the column, eg the eight repeated notes, but Ill get round to that as and when I need them. I really find both keyboards incredibly logical and wonder why the piano keyboard hasnt been superseded by the button system. I hope Im not offending any PA people, its only a newbies observation.

That much - particularly the intervals available via the counterbass row - is more than many accordionists know, I think, so that should serve for the moment. From there, I guess it depends on your ambitions, whether you mainly want to play by ear or play from a chart, and on how your brain works as I believe were all quite different.

Which may have something to do with the continued popularity of the piano keyboard. To be sure, the same keyboard on accordion and piano is convenient, but that sort of begs the question. I mean, did no one ever think to replace the piano keyboard, organ, harpsichord, whatever, with something like our incredibly logical chromatic button layout? I imagine its been tried. My theory is that the illogical piano keyboard provides the human brain with a very useful pattern structure, much more than does a uniform diagonal array. You can manage without, and obviously people can play the CBA quite well, but Im just saying that in return for its irritating awkwardness, the piano keyboard may have some virtues.

I recently marked the C and F buttons, just bits of transparent tape, following what folks here say is somewhat standard for CBA but not on my French style 4 row. That has helped quite a bit, and Ill be thinking about something a little more long term. On the other hand, I have already taken the tape off, where I marked a couple other buttons on the bass side, because, believe it or not, it added to my confusion - Id think I had C, when it was really Ab or something.

Another sax player here, by the way. Mainly bari of late, some tenor, actually started on bass as I play a variety of bass instruments.

 

[BobM]

I mean, did no one ever think to replace the piano keyboard, organ, harpsichord, whatever, with something like our incredibly logical chromatic button layout? I imagine its been tried. My theory is that the illogical piano keyboard provides the human brain with a very useful pattern structure, much more than does a uniform diagonal array. You can manage without, and obviously people can play the CBA quite well, but Im just saying that in return for its irritating awkwardness, the piano keyboard may have some virtues.

Isn’t the Piano keyboard the way that it is because of it’s original internal mechanics, like the “qwerty typewriter keyboard, and these systems have hung on because of there ubiquity?

But irritating awkwardness, really?

BobM.

 

[donn]

Sure, the keys aren't really disposed in the most convenient array. I mean, if someone from another galaxy were to look at the piano keyboard, he'd no doubt draw erroneous conclusions about how our hands work. But I don't really play, just incidentally grope a keyboard once in a while.

On further reflection I suppose a more compact array, as in the chromatic button accordion, is more suited to accordion than piano, because on accordion you don't really "strike" the key or button so much and it's easier to operate in a small space, and the space is at a premium because it's hanging off your neck.

 

[Anyanka]

I don't think I would want a CBA keyboard on my piano & harmonium, even though I'm completely hooked on the button squeezebox now... and as Bob says, the piano's workings require the linear keyboard as far as I understand!

 

[Glenn]

Donn has the obvious point that the piano is a touch sensitive instrument.
The way you stroke the keys is critical to getting the performance.
Apart from the physical issue of linking hammers to long, tensioned strings via a three row or hexagonal designed keyboard, the open spacing of the piano keyboard allows the hand to rest comfortably from above with a more controlled action to achieve the correct touch of the keys. On the other hand, the church organ could have an alternative layout as each key is linked via a torturous linkage route (servo assisted these days) to a pipe valve. Never seen one with anything but the standard layout on multiple levels. Even the foot-board is laid out like a 12 tone keyboard.

 

[idelone]

Oh Grief ! Did I really start this, I am so sorry, I think Ill button it in future, if youll forgive the pun. I really wasnt decrying the virtues of the piano, its just that the way the CBA treble keyboard is laid out, minor thirds along the row and chromatics on the diagonal, to me is very logical, and makes a lot of sense.

I remember it as the cycle of fifths with flats down and sharps up, bass, Maj, Min, 7th and Dim chords on their own row, with C/Bass being the third of the scale on the row and Maj7th or leading note down the column and the 6th up the column. I havent worked out what goes beyond the octave on the column, eg the eight repeated notes, but Ill get round to that as and when I need them. I really find both keyboards incredibly logical and wonder why the piano keyboard hasnt been superseded by the button system. I hope Im not offending any PA people, its only a newbies observation.

That much - particularly the intervals available via the counterbass row - is more than many accordionists know, I think, so that should serve for the moment. From there, I guess it depends on your ambitions, whether you mainly want to play by ear or play from a chart, and on how your brain works as I believe were all quite different.

Another sax player here, by the way. Mainly bari of late, some tenor, actually started on bass as I play a variety of bass instruments.[/quote]

As you say Donn, we are all different, when I look at the keyboard I see it in terms of the notes of a scale, which is hardly surprising when you play a single line instrument, so in terms of the bass layout, I look at the surrounding notes and relate them to the scale in question. With regard to my ambitions, for the moment, they are to learn to play the cba, and I only use the dots to speed up the process of memorising a tune rather than picking it out by ear (I admit to being lazy).

Incidentally, I started on the alto but switched to the baritone as it was in greater demand in respect of big band work, but mainly used the tenor with a little bit of alto in the jump band.

 

[idelone]

What the ....? :shock:

Youve lost me ....at the first Cycle........I just memorised the chart........for my ackordeen......wow, way to go...... :b

Jarvo

I’m sort of getting it Jarvo, “both keyboards”, I think refers to 2 different button type instruments, and there’s a rhetorical question about the Piano keyboard to finish..
BobM.[/quote]
Sorry Jarvo, I did rather complicate the explanation, I know what I mean but sometimes its a lot harder to put it in words; so rather than commit the whole bass chart to memory, I just memorised the C row and looked at some of the other surrounding bass buttons that related to the C-scale and committed those to memory......... Hmmmm ! This isnt much better is it. Forget it, I just memorised the chart in a different way.

BobM, yes you were partly right, both keyboards meant the bass side and the treble side of a cba, and yes it was a rhetorical question. I apologise for the confusion created by badly worded sentences. Note to self - must try to be more explicit next time.

 

[BobM]

When I started I could have chosen either option, because I had very few Piano skills, only previously entering MIDI info and a little basic harmony for my main musical job. I went for the P/A simply because I work with a lot of keyboard/Pianists and I spent years looking over their shoulders absorbing the chord shapes etc. The other reason is age related, I doubt that I'll get any speed benefit one way or the other...

Yes, the CBA is a more logical layout, the P/A is nicer looking though!

BobM.

 

[donn]

Now that's where I would differ for sure - maybe because mine has the elegant classic French style, 4 rows and all white buttons. The piano keyboard just looks odd hanging from someone's neck, to my eye.

 

[Glenn]

Let us be honest guys. The accordion is not a beautiful instrument in any of its forms.
It is function over form and that is how it should be.

 

[Jim the box]

Let us be honest guys. The accordion is not a beautiful instrument in any of its forms.
It is function over form and that is how it should be.

Glenn, I have to differ on that one, my Excelsior with inlay and diamante’s is one of the most beautiful things to behold and I consider her the second woman in my life.

I may be slightly prejudice though and may need to get a life :ch

 

[idelone]

Yes, the CBA is a more logical layout, the P/A is nicer looking though!

BobM.

Sounds like the start of a new thread, The aesthetics of musical instruments, and another can of worms. :evil:

 

[dunlustin]

Quote
" I have already taken the tape off, where I marked a couple other buttons on the bass side, because, believe it or not, it added to my confusion - I'd think I had C, when it was really Ab or something."
1. It's Ab or nothing down there
2. That's why Stradella basses so often have different textures - dimple or ,cross hatch.
Quote
"mine has the elegant classic French style, 4 rows and all white buttons"
Elegance is fine once we know what we're doing but never expect the French to offer the straightforward option when learning. Arguably the smooth buttons do allow faster playing but it'll be a while before that becomes a problem for me.
For Idelone
If your background is playing baritone in groups I guess you are at home with playing bass lines. So for now an alternative: forget the chords and work out how to play a major scale on the bass buttons and use your bari experience for the Left hand.
As it's Stradella the pattern is the same for all major keys. Have another look at the chart and you'll see that chromatic runs are also straightforward. You only have a chromatic octave but that's more than a lot of bass players are allowed.
By the way - nothing revolutionary about this, John Kirkpatrick was doing this 40 years ago. For ages I thought he'd multitracked a bass concertina.

 

[cat]

...I leave the alto out so that I can have a blow to keep my chops in shape, but recently thats not been happening due to work pressure and limited time.

[/quote]

I only play a clarinet these days--theyre really convenient to have at the desk, able to play quietly, etc. I find that--for a variety of reasons--woodwinds in particular are a difficult vice to kick...that oral thing, maybe

Ive spent more of my life than I care to think--conflicted over which instruments to play, etc. At this point in my life--playing in my house with my kids my primary audience--the accordion assuages more of my needs than most of the others. Of course--WHICH accordion? :? And as much as I struggle with the PA (I do best with buttons), its versatility is something Ive been unable to resist

 

[cat]

Yes, the CBA is a more logical layout, the P/A is nicer looking though!

BobM.

Sounds like the start of a new thread, The aesthetics of musical instruments, and another can of worms. :evil: [/quote]

Oh please no. (Im trying to avoid playing clarsach! :? )

 

[cat]

Let us be honest guys. The accordion is not a beautiful instrument in any of its forms.
It is function over form and that is how it should be.

Sobering, but accurate

 

[idelone]

Jim, Ive only just read this posting, so forgive the late reply, but.........

Glenn, I have to differ on that one, my Excelsior with inlay and diamante’s is one of the most beautiful things to behold and I consider her the second woman in my life.

I have to say Jim, if you continue with kind of thinking shell end up being the first woman in your life. {} :lol:

 

[BobM]

Yes, the CBA is a more logical layout, the P/A is nicer looking though!

BobM.

I was being tongue in cheek when I posted this, it seems to have taken on a life of it’s own..