Better understanding of accordion / bayan difference.

[debra]

The question has come up a few times what distinguishes a bayan most clearly from an accordion. After a few weeks now with my AKKO bayan, playing mostly with others who all play the accordion, I seem to have hit upon the key difference: the sound volume and to a lesser extent the timbre as well. The difference in sound volume is best explained by the construction of the reeds: they are rectangular (not trapezoid like on accordions), made of what I think is a tougher steel, and they are generally larger (for the same note). The difference in timbre is mostly due to the cassotto being a bit deeper, with room to have also the first reed block deep enough inside the cassotto to create a more even sound of all blocks in cassotto. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and Id like to do that through this very illustrative video: .
What is special here is that in the movie of a duo the player on the left (from the audiences point of view) plays a Scandalli button accordion and the player on the right plays an AKKO piano-keyboard bayan. In the video the (male) Scandalli player is visibly often putting a lot of effort into producing enough volume whereas the (female) AKKO player on the right is visibly effortlessly producing a much stronger sound. Obviously this is unbalanced (so even though both play very very well the video isnt that great as a whole).
I have now played in one large orchestra and in two different quintets with my (button, C-system) AKKO and I share that experience: the bayan produces a lot more volume, so Im now in the learning process of playing softer. There is no magic in the overall construction of the instrument that distinguishes a bayan from an accordion (on the inside everything looks remarkably similar to what I have found in Italian PAs and CBAs). The main difference is in the large reed plates with larger and rectangular reeds. In the video I linked to this is very obvious. It does not even matter what keyboard there is on the instrument: the Scandalli is clearly an accordion and the AKKO is clearly a bayan.

 

[nagant27]

Good information.

Quick question: Can you post a picture of the rectangular reed tongues? and also the casotto difference? I am curious.

thanks again

 

[debra]

Good information.

Quick question: Can you post a picture of the rectangular reed tongues? and also the casotto difference? I am curious.

thanks again

Sure: here are the reeds (the ones you see here are the L reeds that correspond to the first (outermost) row of buttons. The highest reeds are trapezoid like on a regular accordion but the lower reeds are rectangular and rather large for the notes. Dont forget this is a CBA! The 4th reed from the left is an Es just below the low E on a 45-key PA. The smallest reed that still has a valve is the highest A (highest note on a 41-key PA), but it is the L reed of course. It takes a bit of knowledge of accordion reeds to see that here the reeds are all larger than the equivalent on an accordion. But the difference is smaller on the very highest notes than on the lower notes.
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2016/slides/PA059585.jpg>
In contrast, here is a picture from the lower bass reeds inside an old Hohner Gola (that had some botched repair work done in the past). Even these largest bass reeds have a visibly trapezoid shape and are (not so visibly) smaller and single-riveted. The AKKO has much larger bass reeds, double riveted, and with less weight added near the tip.
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2012/slides/Image188.jpg>
And here is the keyboard side. The platform in which the pallets rest is raised higher than on a regular accordion. As a result the cassotto also extends that much further up. So the cassotto is not deeper on the inside of the instrument (towards the bellows) but extends further on the outside.
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2016/slides/PA059589.jpg>

 

[maugein96]

That's certainly quite a marked difference in volume and presence. The Scandalli is on a hiding to nothing.

I've come across a similar situation with CBAs. Some of them are just louder than others, without any obvious explanation. It probably is down to the reeds, as you have pointed out, but I don't know enough about the technical side of things. Also, only one of my accordions has a tone chamber, so I cannot compare it with the others.

A very interesting post. Thanks

 

[JerryPH]

I really enjoy the sound of the Bayan reeds a lot, they are reminiscent of Gola reeds that are also quite loud, an experience I recall when we were all sitting around at the conservatory and just swapped instruments for fun and to kill a few minutes before our time with the professors.

I am pleasantly surprised at seeing a piano keyboard "Bayan", I thought that the 3 main traits that defined a Bayan as being a complete Bayan are:
- button keyboard
- converter bass but in reverse orientation (low notes down low, high notes up top)
- yes, that very glorious distinctive sound

Seems that to my pleasure, the lines between what can be called a Bayan are blurred.

Now if they made a Bayan in keyboard with a 185 bass Free Bass format (ala Hohner setup), I might have found my new dream instrument!

 

[debra]

Thats certainly quite a marked difference in volume and presence. The Scandalli is on a hiding to nothing.

Ive come across a similar situation with CBAs. Some of them are just louder than others, without any obvious explanation. It probably is down to the reeds, as you have pointed out, but I dont know enough about the technical side of things. Also, only one of my accordions has a tone chamber, so I cannot compare it with the others.

A very interesting post. Thanks

The same duo played earlier, both using a Scandalli. I have the impression that here the girl puts in more effort to produce volume but she never overpowers the CBA player.
Here is a performance of the same piece (Meditango): . Of course the girl plays the main melody, but when both use the Scandalli the guy has no trouble being heard quite well when needed, and when the girl uses the AKKO the guy is just nowhere.
Here some other videos by the same duo, both using Scandalli and being evenly matched.

Please note, I am not making any judgment as to which is better as an instrument. I am mainly stressing that there is a large difference in sound volume. (Differences in timbre are especially a matter of preference.) So mixing accordions and bayans in an ensemble requires extra attention and effort to keep the volume balanced between the different parts.

 

[maugein96]

She certainly plays with gusto and puts a lot of effort into those glissando slides, which gives her an advantage over her companion, but as you say both accordions seem to be quite evenly matched. On the whole he seems to be quite relaxed, while she is very animated, and the eyes tend to follow the movement, sometimes taking the ears with them. The first time I watched the clips I was of the opinion she was louder than he was, but I wasn't sure what I was listening for with the CBA player. After I'd got that sorted out, I realised he was indeed quite audible.

The music is a bit out of my depth but I can understand why you get a lot of pleasure out of it, as these two players obviously do. Only formal music training I've had was on trumpet, and even yet I have to regularly remind myself that there are chords in music as well as melody.

 

[landro]

Good information.

Quick question: Can you post a picture of the rectangular reed tongues? and also the casotto difference? I am curious.

thanks again

Sure: here are the reeds (the ones you see here are the L reeds that correspond to the first (outermost) row of buttons. The highest reeds are trapezoid like on a regular accordion but the lower reeds are rectangular and rather large for the notes. Dont forget this is a CBA! The 4th reed from the left is an Es just below the low E on a 45-key PA. The smallest reed that still has a valve is the highest A (highest note on a 41-key PA), but it is the L reed of course. It takes a bit of knowledge of accordion reeds to see that here the reeds are all larger than the equivalent on an accordion. But the difference is smaller on the very highest notes than on the lower notes.
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2016/slides/PA059585.jpg>
In contrast, here is a picture from the lower bass reeds inside an old Hohner Gola (that had some botched repair work done in the past). Even these largest bass reeds have a visibly trapezoid shape and are (not so visibly) smaller and single-riveted. The AKKO has much larger bass reeds, double riveted, and with less weight added near the tip.
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2012/slides/Image188.jpg>
And here is the keyboard side. The platform in which the pallets rest is raised higher than on a regular accordion. As a result the cassotto also extends that much further up. So the cassotto is not deeper on the inside of the instrument (towards the bellows) but extends further on the outside.
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2016/slides/PA059589.jpg>[/quote]

Rather interesting to me at least , are those large plates upon which numerous reeds are mounted. A first for me. Being familiar only with traditional single accordion reed plates one might wonder if there would be some rogue harmonics or something else going on but obviously there isn`t. The bayan looks to be fairly well made , at least looking at the pictures. If the large plate works in a bayan, why haven`t traditional accordion makers done the same? I can envision some work saved in the process.

 

[JerryPH]

I would suggest as a possible option repair or replacement costs. If the reed plates are separate, if one goes, you replace just that one. If a reed goes on tbe Bayan, the entire plate has to be replaced?

 

[debra]

Rather interesting to me at least , are those large plates upon which numerous reeds are mounted. A first for me. Being familiar only with traditional single accordion reed plates one might wonder if there would be some rogue harmonics or something else going on but obviously there isn`t. The bayan looks to be fairly well made , at least looking at the pictures. If the large plate works in a bayan, why haven`t traditional accordion makers done the same? I can envision some work saved in the process.

Large plates with multiple reeds are being used in accordions on the bass side. The Pigini basson C39 I have has them for the lowest three octaves:
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/divers2014/slides/P1250121.jpg>
I had a Bugari 289/ARS/C5 in the past and it too had some of the lower bass notes on a multi-reed plate.
At the Frankfurter musikmesse earlier this year Cagnoni (Italian reed maker) had a full octave bass reed plate on display.
The plates make maintenance (tuning) a lot easier as you simply take out a whole plate and then put it back, no wax to mess with.
But using the plates also has another advantage you can see best in the picture I posted (both the AKKO pictures and the Pigini one): it allows for tighter spacing between the notes (especially the lower notes), resulting in a more compact overall construction of the instrument.
Obviously a disadvantage is that when one reed breaks (not likely during repair on these instruments, but perhaps more likely while playing very loud) you have to send in a whole reed plate for repair and as the factory is in Russia it probably means you will be without instrument for a month or so. All the more reason for me to keep a spare (Italian) instrument on standby.

 

[Sebastian Bravo]

I have something to ask here:

How does the free bass convertor works?

I mean, not the order of the notes, but how does it re-arrange the inside parts to change each button function? It is possible to get a picture of the bass side, under the strap, please?

 

[debra]

If you go to Google Images and search for "accordion bass mechanism" you will get lots of pictures.
When you push a bass button it pushes a number of pins/levers. The convertor moves the internal mechanism in such a way that in one position the button pushes several levers that correspond to notes of a chord and in the other position it pushes levers for a single note. It's best to see it in action to understand.

Note that convertor has nothing to do with the accordion / bayan difference so your title is a bit misleading. I'm not sure what you want to know about the accordion/bayan difference. The available of a convertor is common on both (and sometimes absent on both).

 

[Sebastian Bravo]

I know google is full of images, but i've never seen the "convertor bass mechanism" on google. So that's why i asked for pictures (as i saw you posting images of your AKKO)

You are correct, this was misleading, sorry

 

[debra]

I know google is full of images, but ive never seen the convertor bass mechanism on google. So thats why i asked for pictures (as i saw you posting images of your AKKO)
...

Have a look at this video: <YOUTUBE id=X7HUtvslBzo url=></YOUTUBE>
It does not get much clearer than this without looking at it in real life and trying it out and then observing what moves.

 

[Sebastian Bravo]

This is what i needed! Thanks Paul

 

[Mr Mark]

Interesting post and discussion here, but I am left with a question or two.

Do I understand correctly in the demonstration video that there is a chromatic button accordion and a piano bayan? Wikipedia defines a bayan as being a chromatic button accordion with no reference to a piano accordion but I assume the knowledge base their to be less specific so I am just seeking clarity here instead.

My old Hohner Verdi PA has both trapezoid and square reeds (the bass reeds in the bass section are square whereas all the other reeds in the bass section are trapezoid) so is this a bayanordion or an accordayan? :mrgreen: I now understand why the bass section on these is louder than my other accordions and am appreciative for the enlightenment!

 

[debra]

Interesting post and discussion here, but I am left with a question or two.

Do I understand correctly in the demonstration video that there is a chromatic button accordion and a piano bayan? Wikipedia defines a bayan as being a chromatic button accordion with no reference to a piano accordion but I assume the knowledge base their to be less specific so I am just seeking clarity here instead.

My old Hohner Verdi PA has both trapezoid and square reeds (the bass reeds in the bass section are square whereas all the other reeds in the bass section are trapezoid) so is this a bayanordion or an accordayan? :mrgreen: I now understand why the bass section on these is louder than my other accordions and am appreciative for the enlightenment!

These are good questions indeed. There is no universally agreed-upon definition of what defines a bayan. When comparing a typical Italian CBA to a (recent) Russian bayan there are two main differences:
1) A bayan has the keyboard further forward than a normal CBA. But that construction or form factor has been copied by the Italians decades ago, and they too sell accordions as bayan that look like a Russian bayan.
2) A bayan has large reed plates with many reeds, and most reeds are rectangular. Lower (including most bass) reeds are rectangular on all accordions and bayans, and the high reeds are trapezoidal on all accordions and bayans, but in the middle region the bayan still has rectangular reeds and the accordion has trapezoidal ones, and this gives different harmonics and thus a different sound. Some Italian accordions do have large reed plates with many reeds for the lower notes on the bass side but a modern Russian bayan has large multi-note reed plates for all reeds.
Some people consider the construction to be enough to make a CBA a bayan, including of course the Italian manufacturers of bayans. Others put more emphasis on the multi-reed reed plates and the shape of the reeds and do not consider a bayan-shaped Italian CBA to be a bayan. But a Pigini Sirius bayan also does not sound like a regular Italian CBA (constructed more like a PA than a bayan) either... It clearly is a bit of a hybrid.

Ah and then there are the Russian PAs with the same multi-reed reed plates used in bayans, and sounding more like a bayan than like an Italian PA... not sure what to call them, but I really do like how they sound.

 

[Mr Mark]

Thanks for adding to the clarity - which does seem to add to the mystery that surrounds this entire family of instruments. I do like the non conformity aspect of things regarding construction in that not everything can be categorized into universal definitions.

I never noticed the forward keyboards before until you pointed that out, I have not seen anything like those around here.

I did pick up on the multi reed plate bit earlier, but your further explaining of square vs trapezoidal reeds is appreciated as I did not want to open up my other accordions to check reed shapes :lol: (in the future I am definitely remembering to take many photos whenever I take anything apart for future reference).

As long as it sounds good that is the main thing. Another question though; does reed chamber shape factor at all into defining things? I just ask as I remember my Verdi had some wedges installed to the higher note reed chambers, I presume to better funnel the air. Maybe this is a whole other thread...