What determines a better sounding box?

[saundersbp]

I have always been somewhat dubious about “subjectivity”tone timbre projection etc
Unless we are talking like for like ,and one factors, in intention of build.

As the general principal.one builds for longevity,but as lightly as possible for vibration resonance,and projection,and using materials that will facilitate that

Not normally a discussion I'd enter into but for what its worth to answer you question
"What determines a better sounding box?" for my money I'd say:

1. Above all the player.

2. Next the acoustic the instrument is played in, especially important for wind instruments.

3. And least importantly of all the instrument itself. I can't comment on historic instruments but based on what you can buy today new (and excluding small setups (less than 30 workers) which may or may not be in business in the next generation):

(a) The melodion makers have the best sound: Castagnari, Dino Baffetti (inc. Saltarelle branding they make), Serenellini

(b) If you want a more comprehensive accordion than the melodion makers (i.e. converter, freebass etc.) I'd go for the house of Bugari (i.e. Bugari, Zero Sette, Petrosa, Giulietti). If you pay more money for one of these labels as a new instrument over another (made in the same factory by the same people with the same bits) then I will start canning 'Yorkshire Fresh Air' in North, West and South flavours and place you on an expensive subscription.

 

[dak]

Not normally a discussion I'd enter into but for what its worth to answer you question
"What determines a better sounding box?" for my money I'd say:

1. Above all the player.

I wish. In the mean time, I am glad that my instrument isn't picky about who it may sound good for.

 

[Plinky]

Not normally a discussion I'd enter into but for what its worth to answer you question
"What determines a better sounding box?" for my money I'd say:

1. Above all the player.

 

[noelekal]

Can't resist.

When considering my accordions, a better playing accordionist makes them sound better.

 

[Alan Polivka]

Based on my experience in building concertinas, in a rough order of influence on the timbre: slot&tongue shape (e.g. trapezoid tongue with straight slot accordion reed vs straight tongue with tapered slot concertina reed), frame/shoe metal choice, single plate vs common plate, reed quality (tongue metal stiffness, slot tolerances and tongue profile), chamber orientation and dimensions, incuding padhole dimensions and pad overlap, voicing, valve stiffness and material. Those define the starting point of the spectrum and you can only shape this later to a point - no matter how hard you try you won’t make a box with alluminum accordion reeds sound like one with traditional concertina brass reeds for example. Then comes the number of bounces, any and all chambers along the way (not only casotto, but also action chamber and openness of the grille fretwork), and surface texture and stiffness of the material from which the sound bounces. All secondary vibrations of the mechanism are a different beast, as those are mostly quality considerations and are pretty much proportional to the amount of unfelted joints/contact points.

Now many of those parameters are coupled, many of them affect lower reeds more than mid or high reeds etc.

This is news to me ... an accordion with aluminum reeds. What type and brand of accordion has aluminum reeds? I ask because I've had my hands on hundreds of accordions and never yet seen one with aluminum reeds. They normally have aluminum reed plates, but the reeds (tongues) themselves are usually made of steel. Did you mean to say aluminum reed plates, Nou?

 

[Plinky]

This is news to me ... an accordion with aluminum reeds. What type and brand of accordion has aluminum reeds? I ask because I've had my hands on hundreds of accordions and never yet seen one with aluminum reeds. They normally have aluminum reed plates, but the reeds (tongues) themselves are usually made of steel. Did you mean to say aluminum reed plates, Nou?

Hi Alan I played the MacCann duet concertina for many years,I had two beautiful wheatstone concertinas (brass shoes and steel reeds)
I have no idea how they are made nowadays.
I never cite the player as being the most important factor ,as that was seen to be obvious.

 

[Plinky]

Many thanks for all the input,and it's wonderful to have access to such a wealth of knowledge.


I got an email back from a friend that is quite knowledgeable,and he pointed out the castagnari is quite dry.
He has a handbuilt one row dry-ish that has

100% Made in Italy

Quality at the acoustic heart of the instrument

www.vociarmoniche.it

Reeds in it , its a hell of a box but more importantly he's a wonderful player.
its certainly given me ,food for thought

 

[Plinky]

I wish. In the mean time, I am glad that my instrument isn't picky about who it may sound good for.

As a working musician,I like many others spent most of my life chasing it "that perfect sound"I wouldn't like to calculate how much money I've spend on various perceived"upgrades"
But I think its like constantly challenging your technique, if you ever get completely comfortable ,the journey is over

 

[PhiliGol]

1. Above all the player.

So true

 

[nou]

This is news to me ... an accordion with aluminum reeds. What type and brand of accordion has aluminum reeds? I ask because I've had my hands on hundreds of accordions and never yet seen one with aluminum reeds. They normally have aluminum reed plates, but the reeds (tongues) themselves are usually made of steel. Did you mean to say aluminum reed plates, Nou?

I thought the whole context of this list made it clear, that I meant the frame, not the tongue, especially when „alluminum tongue” makes no sense at all For me „the reed” is the whole thing, that consists of the frame/ahoe with the slot, the tongue and the rivet/screw mount. I never use the word „reed” for the tongue. But a similar confusion arises often in the concertina world, where „brass reeds” can be interpreted as brass tongue or brass shoe, and steel can also be interpreted two ways.

This may be the „lost in translation” kind of thing, as english is not my native language and free reed vocabulary is created a bit differently here.

 

[Alan Polivka]

I thought the whole context of this list made it clear, that I meant the frame, not the tongue, especially when „alluminum tongue” makes no sense at all For me „the reed” is the whole thing, that consists of the frame/ahoe with the slot, the tongue and the rivet/screw mount. I never use the word „reed” for the tongue. But a similar confusion arises often in the concertina world, where „brass reeds” can be interpreted as brass tongue or brass shoe, and steel can also be interpreted two ways.

This may be the „lost in translation” kind of thing, as english is not my native language and free reed vocabulary is created a bit differently here.

Thank you for the clarification. Here in the US, when we talk about a "reed", we're typically talking about the tongue, or sometimes about the entire assembly (reed + plate + rivet), but we don't use the term "reed" when talking only about the plate. For example, when we talk about "handmade reeds", we're generally referring to the way the tongues were made. There are a wide range of knowledge bases among the readers of this forum and there are some who would not realize that an aluminum tongue makes no sense. For their benefit, it is good to be clear.

 

[Perogie]

I can't say much in response to the build and size of accordions, but as an acoustic guitar player for essentially my entire adult life (30 years now... phew) as I have gotten better I have preferred smaller and smaller bodies and basically only play my parlor size with a sprinkling of my concert sized, even for gigs. As they're "snappier" for fingerpicking. Cost means essentially nothing to me aside from the super cheap junkers I can make a $250 parlor sounds as good as one that costs $8000+. In fact my main guitar is my Fender CP-60s and I own (too many) much nicer acoustic guitars of various sizes.

I guess this all goes back to it being the player not the box as many have already stated.

 

[losthobos]

@saundersbp
Can you expand a little on why you consider the melodeon makers create better sounding accordions...
Interesting concept...I did play a castagnari k3 at a trade stand and I agree it felt very different...

 

[hais1273]

The player 99% of the time. A good player can make a bad instrument sound good and a bad player make a good instrument sound bad. It's belatedly dawned on me the audience, be they dancers or listeners don't really care about the instrument, ( other than enthusiasts). They just want to be to entertained. The instrument makes a great deal of difference to the player, a good "sharp" tool makes any job easier
A couple of years ago I saw someone cane the life out of a purple Weltmeister Rubin. She was an excellent player with a supposedly inferior instrument. Great fun and a very very good performance.
Castagnari, Salterelle and other good melodeons probably sound so good because they're small and light and can be played energetically, the bellows direction changes often coincide with musical highlights. Maybe the smaller, more cubic shape helps with the projection of the sound. Personally, I like to dance to a well played Hohner pokerwerk, I like the unsophisticated sound and energy they have.

 

[Walker]

I guess this all goes back to it being the player not the box as many have already stated

It is true that a skilled and sensitive musician can get more out of an accordion than someone with weaker technique or less expressiveness. I haven't checked but I'm also pretty sure a maestro would play just as well using a Stephanelli instead of a Pigini Nova. Maybe the fancy accordions aren't really needed... Now I know there are lots of you in the Forum with formidable collections of fine and rare accordions - looking at you @saundersbp, but don't be disheartened, I could help facilitate change, maybe a straight swap of your beautiful Bugaris and Saltarelli, for a nice Parrot of my choosing.
​

@saundersbp
Can you expand a little on why you consider the melodeon makers create better sounding accordions...
Interesting concept...I did play a castagnari k3 at a trade stand and I agree it felt very different...

I would like to hear Ben's view too, but I agree these small, PA/CBA boxes a la melodeon - do have a real charm, due to their sweet, clear and direct energy - it's engaging. They also have a folksy-chic that could potentially open up a whole new wardrobe of suede waistcoats and fedoras. The possibilities are endless...

 

[dak]

It is true that a skilled and sensitive musician can get more out of an accordion than someone with weaker technique or less expressiveness. I haven't checked but I'm also pretty sure a maestro would play just as well using a Stephanelli instead of a Pigini Nova.​

At a music fair, the beginner boxes will not be showcased by beginners. They are showcased by musicians who know how their music should sound, and they will fight the instrument for it to get close. There is a difference between learning on an instrument that will mostly ignore me accidentally doing something better than usual and an instrument that will highlight it.

A good instrument in my book does its part in making a good musician. You need to give it time, just like you need to give other teachers time.

When I switch to other instruments that are worse at those things I like about mine (in particular, balance of the hands), I fight to make things sound in a manner I can enjoy. That is a learning experience as well. But I have enough things to improve upon that it is a misdirection of my resources to focus on things I should be able to leave to the instrument.

 

[Rosie C]

Castagnari, Salterelle and other good melodeons probably sound so good because they're small and light and can be played energetically, the bellows direction changes often coincide with musical highlights.

I have a friend brings his Castagnari over once in a while to play. He's just starting out on the instrument, so I match my PA bellows motion to what he should be doing on melodeon to avoid confusion. I found it improved my playing - a bellows direction change every bar makes our folk tunes much more energetic.

 

[nou]

This whole „It’s the player, not the instrument” is an point of view that pops up frequently in every instrument/hobby forum I frequent and I couldn’t agree less with it. Not only are there objective metrics that you can use to distinguish worse instruments/tools from better ones, but in most of those activities, be it concertina or accordion playing, or as different one as miniatures painting, people who just start they journey will benefit greatly from using the highest tier tools they can afford. This is because a master can work around the limitations of the tool to squeze out the maximum from it, but the amateur can’t.

There is also great, usually ommitted aspect here. Can a great player perform in an enjoyable way on an inferior instrument? Yes. Can he fully show his maximum potential? No. Focussing just on accordions - inferior instruments will be first of all slower and this will be the biggest limiting factor. Secondly, they will be less air efficient, limiting the number of parallel voices and complicating or fully inhibiting proper phrasing. If we include parameters like number of keys/buttons, you may simply be completely limited in accessible repertoire. Last but not least, there is also the fundamental aspect of „does it even sound good in the first place”. Cheap russian garmoshka will often sound absolutely awfull even when perfectly in tune. You simply can’t play on it to the same pleasure, as on a top of the line bayan.

The very exaggerrated bottom line is - can you be a great tin whistle player? Of course you can. Will your performance sound like the one on grand organs, with even a single stop speaking? No.

 

[Plinky]

Cost means essentially nothing to me aside from the super cheap junkers I can make a $250 parlor sounds as good as one that costs $8000+.

Hi Perogie ,its a foolish assertion,using that rationale.......how good you could make an $8000 guitar sound?
Sounds like you should be giving Tommy Emmanuel lessons.

I didn't mention "the player" as I thought that would be patently obvious.

The idea was to get people's thoughts(excluding the player)on what quality,materials ,construction reeds etc
would be optimal
The long preamble(obviously a vain)attempt to exclude things like.....

"The best sounding accordion .I've ever heard was the one granny played, she made it herself out of a goat trough,knitting needles and some rusty bed Springs ,and all lubricated with goose fat.....and it had that wonderful old timey sound, you just cant get that now days"

I was looking for a dispassionate,opinion based purely on acoustics,how the reeds speak,and how the case materials and construction would affect the sound.

I have a parts 50s Hohner 48 bass and I,m considering building another case for it,to match new but larger bellows as they are easily available.
It didn't come with reeds or reed blocks so instead of buying a generic set of reeds,I wanted to get an idea of the merits of buying a handmade set

Its been very informative ,I have learned about the closer tolerances of handmade reeds,different kinds of Steel used.
How a cassotto works,the debate on how the case affects the sound is still slightly open.



Nostalgia, I,m a big fan, low end guitars sell really well and fly out of the workshop.

 

[Plinky]

. A good player can make a bad instrument sound good and a bad player make a good instrument sound bad.

A good player can make a bad instrument sound good and a bad player make a good instrument sound bad
I agree 100% ,but a good player can make a good instrument sound great.
Often the finest musicians ,play the finest instruments.
And another factor is a quality instrument in the hands of a novice,can often inspire them
I had a little play on a castagnari box and the action,the projection even my simple fumblings sounded quite wonderful