What determines a better sounding box?

[dak]

A good player can make a bad instrument sound good and a bad player make a good instrument sound bad
I agree 100% ,but a good player can make a good instrument sound great.
Often the finest musicians ,play the finest instruments.

Of course they do. If you are playing 8 hours a day, you don't want an instrument you are constantly fighting in order to sound good. It needs to do its fair share of the work.

And another factor is a quality instrument in the hands of a novice,can often inspire them
I had a little play on a castagnari box and the action,the projection even my simple fumblings sounded quite wonderful

Well, the point of instrument practice is to improve on the player, not to improve on the instrument.

 

[Plinky]

Of course they do. If you are playing 8 hours a day, you don't want an instrument you are constantly fighting in order to sound good. It needs to do its fair share of the work.

Well, the point of instrument practice is to improve on the player, not to improve on the instrument.

Hi dak I'm afraid better instruments do make better players.
They often go hand in hand,but how much is certainly debatable.

I teach “obviously not the accordion”and have always seen an improvement ,when students get a better quality instrument.

Generally better quality Instruments sound better and are easier to play.
So students are far more likely to practise.

Violins are the perfect example.with grades the demands on students change,so an upgrade to better quality instrument thats more responsive is required.

Another aspect is perceived "i,m worth it" value.
Human beings are strange creatures,and quite often define themselves by what they own and its value.
so there is also the feel good factor

I think I'm above such things but I'm not,When I closed the workshop and retired .I had modest collection of vintage instruments that I had acquired
Over the years.
As I will not be playing professionally anymore,most of them would have been perfectly adequate to just play, but I chose the instruments I found the most inspiring.
They all happened to be the best quality.

 

[losthobos]

Another aspect is perceived "i,m worth it" value.
Human beings are strange creatures,and quite often define themselves by what they own and its value.
so there is also the feel good factor

,...I sold more high end accordions that I've felt I wasn't worthy of than I've kept dodgy honking "street fighters" that I feel I can kinda dig into..

 

[Plinky]

,...I sold more high end accordions that I've felt I wasn't worthy of than I've kept dodgy honking "street fighter" that I feel I can kinda dig into..

Losthobs I think we all have a touch of Imposter syndrome for time to time,
but I think it just fluctuates throughout one's life.
The more money I earned the more expensive instruments, I felt I was entitled to own.
And it certainly wasn't a reflection of talent.

 

[saundersbp]

I feel like I'm being dragged down a rabbit hole, but here goes.............

@saundersbp
Can you expand a little on why you consider the melodeon makers create better sounding accordions...
Interesting concept...I did play a castagnari k3 at a trade stand and I agree it felt very different...

Simply based on my ears listening to the same music, in the same acoustic, with the same player from the perspective of the audience.
I don't understand the technicalities but the sound of Castagnari and Baffetti (e.g. Saltarelle) is the best in the contemporary mainstream (non-boutique) market. I own neither!

The player 99% of the time.

Agreed and worth focusing on that 99% rather than the 1% rabbit hole.

Now I know there are lots of you in the Forum with formidable collections of fine and rare accordions - looking at you @saundersbp, but don't be disheartened, I could help facilitate change, maybe a straight swap of your beautiful Bugaris and Saltarelli, for a nice Parrot of my choosing.

Look at me if you like @Walker - but as Miss Jean Brodie would say: "do as I say, not as I do"
The Saltarelle is sold and I will be playing a delicious Chanson at the forthcoming https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/ukaa...er-and-student-workshop--tickets-802813786647
However, I will gladly substitute for a friendly Parrot or Canary of your choice.

I would like to hear Ben's view too, but I agree these small, PA/CBA boxes a la melodeon - do have a real charm, due to their sweet, clear and direct energy - it's engaging. They also have a folksy-chic that could potentially open up a whole new wardrobe of suede waistcoats and fedoras. The possibilities are endless...

The projection of the voices is much better and has a more musical characterful tone, but I don't understand the technicalities of why.
I imagine you are about (should be) to be denounced for the (spot-on) "folksy-chic and wardrobe of suede waistcoats and fedoras" comments by our resident Aleister Crowley.........

This whole „It’s the player, not the instrument” is an point of view that pops up frequently in every instrument/hobby forum I frequent and I couldn’t agree less with it

I hope the weather is good in Poland.

A good player can make a bad instrument sound good and a bad player make a good instrument sound bad

Certainly, I agree completely based on my experience with mainstream keyboard instruments.

 

[Perogie]

Hi Perogie ,its a foolish assertion,using that rationale.......how good you could make an $8000 guitar sound?
Sounds like you should be giving Tommy Emmanuel lessons.

Hello hostility... sorry for ruining your thread. I'll be leaving now I suppose.

 

[Plinky]

Hello hostility... sorry for ruining your thread. I'll be leaving now I suppose.

Hi Perogie it wasn't intended as a hostile response,I have been playing and building instruments for over 40 years ,as you're a guitarist I was rather perplexed by your comment.

“I can make a $250 parlor sounds as good as one that costs $8000+”

That would be like me suggesting because of my technique I can make something like a Stentor student violin sound like Guarneri.
Or my Kawai sound like Steinway.I thought a rather strange concept.


You have not in any way ruined the thread ,it's fine comment as much as you like,
This is a place to throw around different ideas ,that is how we learn.

 

[Ffingers]

My, oh my!
Elitism and ego raising their ugly heads as usual.
I have only one thing to say - give the dedicated student the best functioning instrument that can be afforded.
In that, I repeat the words of Yehudi Menuhin amongst several other leading musicians.
The "Student" instrument has been a 'handbrake' on many a potentially brilliant artist.

 

[Plinky]

The "Student" instrument has been a 'handbrake' on many a potentially brilliant artist.

FingersIt would seem self evident,and I would have thought the accordion would be a prime example
The cheaper Chinese boxes,invariably come with the caveat "harder to play"

And It does make one wonder,how many people have abandoned ,playing because of difficult to play or dreadful sounding instruments

If everyone were given a brand new Bugari Juniorfisa 48,as their first beginners box
I think a lot more people would persevere.

I agree that the player is the most important factor,but an instrument that is slow to respond,poorly set up.
Opposed to a more resonant,easier to play instrument is just as important,poor instruments create limitations.

On an entry level violin,replace the dreadful strings they come with,
put on a set Dominants you have a completely different instrument.

 

[Perogie]

FingersIt would seem self evident,and I would have thought the accordion would be a prime example
The cheaper Chinese boxes,invariably come with the caveat "harder to play"

And It does make one wonder,how many people have abandoned ,playing because of difficult to play or dreadful sounding instruments

If everyone were given a brand new Bugari Juniorfisa 48,as their first beginners box
I think a lot more people would persevere.

I agree that the player is the most important factor,but an instrument that is slow to respond,poorly set up.
Opposed to a more resonant,easier to play instrument is just as important,poor instruments create limitations.

On an entry level violin,replace the dreadful strings they come with,
put on a set Dominants you have a completely different instrument.

Just going to put one last comment into the thread because I think it's important for other novices out there to know so they don't feel like the entry point is too highly priced.

I bought a new "Chinese" e soprani 48 bass accordion and it plays and sounds really good, even compared to my other "expensive" Italian box and other nicer boxes I have played.

I'll just leave it at that and take the whole conversation as a lesson to why I've stayed away from having an online presence for years. Strong opinions everywhere including my own, but it leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. Sorry for jumping in, getting out of the pool now.

 

[Ventura]

it depends on the novice

adult novices know they get what they pay for, and oftentimes
in life we have to "work around" stuff that sucks, so we do

Child students do not yet know life isn't fair, so an instrument
that sucks just sucks and they are discouraged from spending time with it

period

from a professional lifelong music industry experienced perspective,
by no stretch of the imagination can an E. Soprani do anything BUT suck

it can nevertheless be a useful instrument for some, and it has been
for one or two of you, but that still doesn't mean they don't suck..

 

[Plinky]

I bought a new "Chinese" e soprani 48 bass accordion and it plays and sounds really good, even compared to my other "expensive" Italian box and other nicer boxes I have played.

I'll just leave it at that and take the whole conversation as a lesson to why I've stayed away from having an online presence for years. Strong opinions everywhere including my own, but it leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. Sorry for jumping in, getting out of the pool now.

Hi Perogie I have one of the "hated" Hohner Bravo,s made in china ,I like it.

I think it's excellent at that price point,I think the quality control might be a bit hit and miss, judging by lots of the comments
but providing you get a good one,it's a perfectly good entry-level accordion to learn on.

I wouldn't get overly disenchanted with internet banter,there are language and cultural differences
And instruments are usually something that people are very passionate about.

On sites such as "whats your favourite wild flower"there is little heated discourse.

 

[Tom]

On sites such as "whats your favourite wild flower"there is little heated discourse.

I was going to go with lupines but then I heard they are not hand made in Italy so I don’t know……

 

[Ventura]

basil is my favrit flower

 

[Plinky]

E. Soprani do anything BUT suck

Hi Ventura
"be a useful instrument for some, and it has been for one or two of you, but that still doesn't mean they don't suck"

"compared to what"?

I do find this flow of derogatory comments rather strange,I understand the term "not as good " or suggesting what you see as ,perhaps a better option but "suck"

Every Chinese accordion I have played, fulfils its functions as an accordion,I would agree they are perhaps not the best constructed ,or the best sounding

But they all function infinitely better as an accordion than "no accordion"

I get the feeling your aversion to Chinese accordions, was forged in some childhood trauma?

I myself was almost run over by an Italian ice cream salesman ,but after 30 years of counselling I feel almost ready
to take that plunge ,and buy an Italian accordion.

 

[Ventura]

compared to the average baseline

E. Soprani was forged on a fraud, a deception, a sham.

it was created to trick unsuspecting and gullible people
into spending a lot of money on stuff that was only intended to
provide a ridiculously high profit margin for the owner of the brand

while it may have morphed, partly because of the Italian court system,
into a marginally useful brand on the low end of accordion pricing, it
nevertheless has sucked since birth, and will always suck.
It's pedigree cannot be changed. you cannot re-write history.

every Chinese accordion available at retail that i have ever played
has made me laugh.. not always out loud because occasionally they
were nevertheless marginally useful and owned by a friend, but the
only Chinese accordions i have ever played that were not a joke were
the ones that the official Chinese State sponsored accordionists brought
with them to the Coupe Mondiale

to pretend differently is to play into the hands of the people who
market E. Soprani, Rosciani, and countless other italian named
accordion looking devices at huge profit margins

i have defended the Chinese Hohner marketing in the past, in their
price point, and for their intended purpose, but they do pretty
much suck by any definition of the term

 

[Perogie]

If a moderator could please delete my account on the forum that would be fantastic. I cannot find a way in settings to do so. Or if someone could please direct this post to a mod so it can be done I would appreciate it.

Have a fantastic time guys, this sort of stuff is just not for me.

 

[Plinky]

every Chinese accordion available at retail that i have ever played
has made me laugh

could that possibly ,be your playing?

 

[dak]

If a moderator could please delete my account on the forum that would be fantastic. I cannot find a way in settings to do so. Or if someone could please direct this post to a mod so it can be done I would appreciate it.

Have a fantastic time guys, this sort of stuff is just not for me.

I'd suggest to try whether using "Ignore" on the mouse-over of people you feel are making this forum unenjoyable for you for whatever reason improves the experience for you to a degree where you think it worth visiting. It is often just few persons that leave a bad taste in your mouth.

All the best

 

[knobby]

If a moderator could please delete my account on the forum that would be fantastic. I cannot find a way in settings to do so. Or if someone could please direct this post to a mod so it can be done I would appreciate it.

Have a fantastic time guys, this sort of stuff is just not for me.

That’s correct - you can’t do it, so I will go and do it for you.