Stopping R&D is not the same as stopping manufacturing. Indeed, even closing a dedicated R&D facility (including letting go of some or all of the people there) does not mean stopping R&D. A shift to incremental development may make it more cost-effective to relocate the R&D to the manufacturing site, including structuring it differently.
Bugari-Evo
- Thread starter John K
- Start date
Yes, I contacted Bugari expressing interest and they referred me to the Sydney Bugari dealer. Bugari also advised me of the expected delivery in October with the slowdown of manufacture during summer
Ventura
Been here for ages!
maybe
i would think when they say "we have stopped all R&D"
that means stopped.. period.. as in stop sign as a real
thing not a suggestion or figment of some imaginary scenario
do you think they have anyone in Japan R&D that understands
Italian anyhow ? that wouls likely be needed to pick up from the long ago
closed, dedicated R&D facility where they let go all of the people
who held the patents and knowledge and such
i would think when they say "we have stopped all R&D"
that means stopped.. period.. as in stop sign as a real
thing not a suggestion or figment of some imaginary scenario
do you think they have anyone in Japan R&D that understands
Italian anyhow ? that wouls likely be needed to pick up from the long ago
closed, dedicated R&D facility where they let go all of the people
who held the patents and knowledge and such
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I own a Roland FR-4X and have played a 8X, so I am familiar with the technology. I also own a Dallape Supermaestro.
To me the Bugari Evo brings the proven Roland technology with the feel of a acoustic accordion.
Also, my profession is in IT and I always specified production software to be n-x versions i.e. not the bleeding edge or beta. Roland software is stable and easy to edit through the arranger, hence I am comfortable to invest in the Bugari Evo.
To me the Bugari Evo brings the proven Roland technology with the feel of a acoustic accordion.
Also, my profession is in IT and I always specified production software to be n-x versions i.e. not the bleeding edge or beta. Roland software is stable and easy to edit through the arranger, hence I am comfortable to invest in the Bugari Evo.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
good luck
Ventura
Been here for ages!
so this by inference suggests that component assemblies needed
for an EVO are once again available from Roland, and also suggests
the licensing arrangement was renewed, which would cover the
"Roland owned rights to the software components" as well as third
party patents (something that cannot be avoided)
component assemblies necessary for an EVO do not guarantee the entire
component list needed for an 8x is available, as the EVO uses a subset
of components and supplements with "Evo designed and built" switching
and other physical components, adapted for the basic Roland design..
it being unlikely that Bugari could generate or afford to contract
privately all boards and other components needed in such qualtity
to be affordable
it's not like you can send a run of 1 main board to a 3d Printer
in an earlier thread it did seem like some kind of production was being
contracted for 8x.. have any of those orders from the last 6 months
for a new 8x been fulfilled ?
it also seems by inference that the previous American UL or other
modern equivalent requirement for electronic assemblies and
products has been gutted and is no longer an obstacle for import
and distribution of small quantities of this type product
( at the time of the original EVO release, the Bugari company could
not justify the cost of UL/USA requirements and chose NOT to
make the EVO available in the USA )
now a key piece of information would be for any new product owner
to check the software version of their "new" 8x or EVO and report the
number, which would prove or disprove whether or not there has
been any further work done to the underlying software/OS, even if the
only "work" done was to re-compile the existing code with a few
name changes and dates
for an EVO are once again available from Roland, and also suggests
the licensing arrangement was renewed, which would cover the
"Roland owned rights to the software components" as well as third
party patents (something that cannot be avoided)
component assemblies necessary for an EVO do not guarantee the entire
component list needed for an 8x is available, as the EVO uses a subset
of components and supplements with "Evo designed and built" switching
and other physical components, adapted for the basic Roland design..
it being unlikely that Bugari could generate or afford to contract
privately all boards and other components needed in such qualtity
to be affordable
it's not like you can send a run of 1 main board to a 3d Printer
in an earlier thread it did seem like some kind of production was being
contracted for 8x.. have any of those orders from the last 6 months
for a new 8x been fulfilled ?
it also seems by inference that the previous American UL or other
modern equivalent requirement for electronic assemblies and
products has been gutted and is no longer an obstacle for import
and distribution of small quantities of this type product
( at the time of the original EVO release, the Bugari company could
not justify the cost of UL/USA requirements and chose NOT to
make the EVO available in the USA )
now a key piece of information would be for any new product owner
to check the software version of their "new" 8x or EVO and report the
number, which would prove or disprove whether or not there has
been any further work done to the underlying software/OS, even if the
only "work" done was to re-compile the existing code with a few
name changes and dates
Ventura
Been here for ages!
finally
i noted on the (very basic) according to paolo website
the specific claim
"In 2007 Bugari acquired the Companies ZeroSette and Giulietti"
in the section where he announces his new arrangement with Bugari
so my question is, is he full of shit and makes stuff up like so many other
people who exaggerate things on the internet, or did he actually hear this
from someone at Bugari when he bought his distributorship ? in which
case this would be BIG news. Proof the Giulietti family has made a legal
and worldwide definitive change regarding ownership of the brand and
all associated rights would be appreciated.. supporting documents.. corporate
yearly investor documentation.. etc. even a definitive statement on public record
from Bugari would be nice to see
i noted on the (very basic) according to paolo website
the specific claim
"In 2007 Bugari acquired the Companies ZeroSette and Giulietti"
in the section where he announces his new arrangement with Bugari
so my question is, is he full of shit and makes stuff up like so many other
people who exaggerate things on the internet, or did he actually hear this
from someone at Bugari when he bought his distributorship ? in which
case this would be BIG news. Proof the Giulietti family has made a legal
and worldwide definitive change regarding ownership of the brand and
all associated rights would be appreciated.. supporting documents.. corporate
yearly investor documentation.. etc. even a definitive statement on public record
from Bugari would be nice to see
Well, we already established previously that instrument prices dropped after manufacturing was shifted from Italy to China (resulting in "made in China" placards on the instruments). It would be kind of pointless to shift manufacturing to a different country and then immediately shut it down.
"I don't want my instrument to be from an early China batch" is certainly a justifiable desire. But that's not the same as manufacturing having stopped.
Considering that the new move to China happened just recently and my discussion happened 2 years ago clearly identifies why I and many others considered that the end of production for the 8X was real.
If the China assembly is true, little would make me happier that the 8X isn’t completely dead, even with the complete lack of updates. The 8X was released 11 years ago and has had minimal or no updates in the last 5 years.
If the China assembly is true, little would make me happier that the 8X isn’t completely dead, even with the complete lack of updates. The 8X was released 11 years ago and has had minimal or no updates in the last 5 years.
More like 1½ but I get your point. Somehow the site manages to trick me into picking up quite dated discussions. Sometimes I am prevented by the threads typically getting locked after some period of inactivity (1 or 2 years?) but not always. So, uhm, doh!
Picking up on the recent Bugari history thread, if Bugari has moved its manufacturing to China, how are they providing warranty and post warranty global support as any diagnosis of a problem needs significant experteise in Roland 8X technology/software and the Bugari body.
I have been advised by a trusted source that the Roland FR4X and FR8X flagships are still Italian made. Also, Roland has not announced any discontinued models … looks like the 4X & 8X continue to be manufactured in Italy.
I contacted Bugari yesterday via email from the link provided on their website and asked if the Evo Digital accordion was still in production as it doesn't show any for sale on their website here is the response from Bugari
YES OF COURSE!
YES OF COURSE IT IS WE HAVE 50 PIECES IN PRODUCTION IN THIS MOMENT .
YES OF COURSE!
YES OF COURSE IT IS WE HAVE 50 PIECES IN PRODUCTION IN THIS MOMENT .
I'm confused. Marco Cinaglia a FORMER employee of Roland is the one that dreamed up and basically gets credit for the set up of many business partnerships for the creation of the EVO. One was the partnership between EVO and Roland to license a (partial) use of their electronics and the other between EVO and Bugari for use of their name and likely other parts like keyboard, bellows, etc. I have no idea where the assembly line for the EVO was... it wasn't at Bugari and it wasn't at Roland... it likely was somewhere in Italy, though.
He publicly stated on his Facebook page that due to financial reasons he is closing down the EVO line, and that the EVO line shared the Bugari name, but little else, as they were used for certain aspects like the keyboards, bellows and what not (I'm paraphrasing his words at the time, not mine).
He them moved on to create his new company that currently supplies vaporware for the time being.
So, something else had to have happened in the background between Evo, Roland and Bugari since Marco is not represented as being an employee of EVO, Roland *or* Bugari or posting anything about any of these companies for a long while on his pages.
Speculation time, but I think it *may* be safe to assume that that Bugari in some form "bought him out" to keep the EVO product and name, and now thanks to Roland's move to the China assembly line, they can continue to make/sell that product.
If all my ramblings are even close to being true, that would put a smile on my face because that would mean some kind of support line for parts and a continuation of the products, at least for some more time... or maybe, in a perfect world would entice Roland to work on a 9X, but I'm not holding my breath on that last point.
He publicly stated on his Facebook page that due to financial reasons he is closing down the EVO line, and that the EVO line shared the Bugari name, but little else, as they were used for certain aspects like the keyboards, bellows and what not (I'm paraphrasing his words at the time, not mine).
He them moved on to create his new company that currently supplies vaporware for the time being.
So, something else had to have happened in the background between Evo, Roland and Bugari since Marco is not represented as being an employee of EVO, Roland *or* Bugari or posting anything about any of these companies for a long while on his pages.
Speculation time, but I think it *may* be safe to assume that that Bugari in some form "bought him out" to keep the EVO product and name, and now thanks to Roland's move to the China assembly line, they can continue to make/sell that product.
If all my ramblings are even close to being true, that would put a smile on my face because that would mean some kind of support line for parts and a continuation of the products, at least for some more time... or maybe, in a perfect world would entice Roland to work on a 9X, but I'm not holding my breath on that last point.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
vague points to note
the australian delivery is supposedly timed to allow for Italy factories
closing for the summer, suggesting that this "build/assembly" is somewhere
in italy, as Asian "brand controlled" factories and production items typically
"drop ship" to customers as a general modern business practice.. part of the
kower price/cost/just in time equation in vogue
if the build has been shifted to a roland controlled asian site, then i would
wonder if these are a sort of bare-bones partially assembled "kit" that
then goes to Bugari italy for fitting with the acoustic acordion components
in this hybrid design
specific and concrete info on points of origin etc. seem to continue
as per usual.. smoke and mirrors.. deliberate mis-direct..
"advised by a trusted source" having most often been shown over
time that the source was mostly trusted by Roland to confidently
and loudly parrot the party line
we know there are only a few companies capable of a final assembly
of Roland components into an accordion shaped object that would
actually work correctly when first switched on and be well built physically,
and only one of them with the chops to pull that off is in Italy (Fatar)
we know Roland has no boots on the ground or employees or
continuing ownership or stewardship of any assembly line
in Europe at all, that they left the arena nearly 2 decades ago..
given that all electronic components and boards sub-assemblies are sourced
in Asia, once Roland can see their way clear to handling physical
specifics regarding accordion.. bellows.. keys and realistic action.. etc.
then likely they will shift that to where they control the margin
the small roland, fr1x, seems anecdotally to be the first fully asian
built model, with suspicion that the 4x has also seen subtle physical
changes that hint to a similar shift
the 8x appears to again be in actual production, after having been
out of production for some years,and at a lower price point.
Until someone who has lived with an original 8x for 10 years gets their hands on
a new one and can closely experience and compare the two, we won't
know for sure what is happening, but it is likely, just as with the FR7x,
that by NOW certain 3rd party parts might be no longer available
as originally designed and used, and that if no alternative supply is
offered by third party electronics supply sources, the final product
will lose support from Roland, and quickly become untenable for
simple maintainence and repair shoulkd the item be an
"achillies heel" key piece (i am thinking, the stepper motor will
be the most likely weak link)
we know this because of the screen fiasco and total lack of
support from Roland for the 7x even before they had
sold off the last new ones from their warehouses, and the
subsequent loss/crash of market value of pre-owned units..
this was accelerated when key components of the pedal board
became also unavailable so that there are now many FR7 and 7x
"orphans" out there, limiting their usefulness to buyers/users
who can find other ways to power and connect their units.
this is all just thinking out loud.. you take what you like and
take your chances
i am lucky to have had so many pass through my hands, and for my
needs and future use, the white 7x i ended up with will likely last
as long as i do, and is my preferred unit.. it beats the 4x
for ME
primarily because it has a palm shift, which suits the way i do things,
and i prefer the old system of logic for pre-setting what i want
where i want it and in an order i find intuative to access
the australian delivery is supposedly timed to allow for Italy factories
closing for the summer, suggesting that this "build/assembly" is somewhere
in italy, as Asian "brand controlled" factories and production items typically
"drop ship" to customers as a general modern business practice.. part of the
kower price/cost/just in time equation in vogue
if the build has been shifted to a roland controlled asian site, then i would
wonder if these are a sort of bare-bones partially assembled "kit" that
then goes to Bugari italy for fitting with the acoustic acordion components
in this hybrid design
specific and concrete info on points of origin etc. seem to continue
as per usual.. smoke and mirrors.. deliberate mis-direct..
"advised by a trusted source" having most often been shown over
time that the source was mostly trusted by Roland to confidently
and loudly parrot the party line
we know there are only a few companies capable of a final assembly
of Roland components into an accordion shaped object that would
actually work correctly when first switched on and be well built physically,
and only one of them with the chops to pull that off is in Italy (Fatar)
we know Roland has no boots on the ground or employees or
continuing ownership or stewardship of any assembly line
in Europe at all, that they left the arena nearly 2 decades ago..
given that all electronic components and boards sub-assemblies are sourced
in Asia, once Roland can see their way clear to handling physical
specifics regarding accordion.. bellows.. keys and realistic action.. etc.
then likely they will shift that to where they control the margin
the small roland, fr1x, seems anecdotally to be the first fully asian
built model, with suspicion that the 4x has also seen subtle physical
changes that hint to a similar shift
the 8x appears to again be in actual production, after having been
out of production for some years,and at a lower price point.
Until someone who has lived with an original 8x for 10 years gets their hands on
a new one and can closely experience and compare the two, we won't
know for sure what is happening, but it is likely, just as with the FR7x,
that by NOW certain 3rd party parts might be no longer available
as originally designed and used, and that if no alternative supply is
offered by third party electronics supply sources, the final product
will lose support from Roland, and quickly become untenable for
simple maintainence and repair shoulkd the item be an
"achillies heel" key piece (i am thinking, the stepper motor will
be the most likely weak link)
we know this because of the screen fiasco and total lack of
support from Roland for the 7x even before they had
sold off the last new ones from their warehouses, and the
subsequent loss/crash of market value of pre-owned units..
this was accelerated when key components of the pedal board
became also unavailable so that there are now many FR7 and 7x
"orphans" out there, limiting their usefulness to buyers/users
who can find other ways to power and connect their units.
this is all just thinking out loud.. you take what you like and
take your chances
i am lucky to have had so many pass through my hands, and for my
needs and future use, the white 7x i ended up with will likely last
as long as i do, and is my preferred unit.. it beats the 4x
for ME
primarily because it has a palm shift, which suits the way i do things,
and i prefer the old system of logic for pre-setting what i want
where i want it and in an order i find intuative to access
I doubt it. The V-Accordion vision revolves around competing with the look-and-feel with acoustic accordions in order to tap into a larger market than that of electronic keyboards. Italy is a paradise for getting accordion parts and partial assembly. That's why prototyping and initial development and coordination/branding/franchising (in the case of Evo) all happen there.If all my ramblings are even close to being true, that would put a smile on my face because that would mean some kind of support line for parts and a continuation of the products, at least for some more time... or maybe, in a perfect world would entice Roland to work on a 9X, but I'm not holding my breath on that last point.
Production, not just for accordions, goes to China when you don't care about cross-fertilization and synergies and feedback from workers to engineering any more.
So something like an 8XN with USB-C connection/charging (to placate EU regulations) will likely be able to be cooked up while manufacturing in China.
I suspect that things like Ciao reedless (and Cavagnolo digital) have mostly started off by stripping accordions down of everything related to actual sound production but otherwise are just an acoustic accordion outfitted with a MIDI kit. In an environment where accordion parts are readily available as well as MIDI kit technology, that is kind of simpler to do than a Roland.
With obvious drawbacks: no switch between C system and B system, weirdnesses for coupling bass notes into chords, no converter bass unless you pay a lot extra and a few other things. But essentially you can cobble together a product from readily available parts.
The Evo is innovative in cobbling together electronics with mechanical parts not intended for them. It sat in a tricky place and it is kind of sad that COVID-19 did its part to squeeze it and its cousin Proxima.
The new Roland FR-8X accordions shipping now have a new action on them. Made in Italy and confirmed by Roland as not discontinued. So one would assume, Bugari Evo has the latest software from Roland in its build in Italy.
Some good news I received from Bugari Here is the official Bugari Evo website where indeed the Evo is still being produced by the Bugari factory and can be bought from their assigned dealers throughout the world
http://www.bugarievo.com/
http://www.bugarievo.com/
