can i play an a flat instead of a g sharp on my accordion?

[Rosie C]

and yet I know a guitarist who is *really* good - he can play John Dowland repertoire and also play pretty much any rock song by memory that you put to him. But he never uses flats. B♭ is always A#. If asked he would say the chords in F major are F, Gm, Am, A#, C, Dm, Edim. Personally I lean quite heavily on music theory to compensate for my modest playing skills, how he got to the level he has without the basics is a mystery.

 

[Tom]

and yet I know a guitarist who is *really* good - he can play John Dowland repertoire and also play pretty much any rock song by memory that you put to him. But he never uses flats. B♭ is always A#. If asked he would say the chords in F major are F, Gm, Am, A#, C, Dm, Edim. Personally I lean quite heavily on music theory to compensate for my modest playing skills, how he got to the level he has without the basics is a mystery.

What really makes me mad are people who have absolutely no idea what a note is called (It’s this one - points to 3rd fret on 3rd string) but can jump in on ANY song and be right on.

 

[Technical]

For me, an easy way to understand it is by looking at a circle of fifths, specifically the bottom bit:

Music Theory: Circle Of Fifths (Explained)

Discover what the circle of fifths is and how to use it in your music. You will also learn a crazy but effective technique to memorizing the circle of fifths.

www.productionmusiclive.com

It's just a different way of looking at and naming the same notes, usually one way is easier to read than the other. I play piano and what is difficult for me is that some don't get used much so you forget them, probably because they are awkward to read and write in.

 

[Dakota_Squeeze]

What really makes me mad are people who have absolutely no idea what a note is called (It’s this one - points to 3rd fret on 3rd string) but can jump in on ANY song and be right on.

Well that's me on guitar at least, for me it's a combination of hating being told what to do and 30 years of just messing around.

Gettin there with the accordion as well... gotta just keep fooling around until things sound right. lol.

 

[Sunshinexxx]

Wow, you lot are amazing! So many replies. Thank you all. I wonder if I could ask you lot more 'silly' questions then?
..and if you would reply to this thread because you get some notification?...
Some of you mentioned messing around with various instruments on their own and most accordion players I bet are self taught because other than the guitar you/ one can progress without giving up.
Can one become a good accordion player by just playing and practicing without a teacher?

 

[debra]

...
Can one become a good accordion player by just playing and practicing without a teacher?

If you mean without ever learning basic things like music notation, without any notion of harmony or music history, without watching any videos that explain how to play the accordion... then the answer is very probably no.
But if you mean that as a person with music training, playing other instruments like for instance the piano, and with a good understanding of music and an inquisitive mind then probably you can become a good accordion player. After all, the accordion has not existed for that long (about 150 years) and at first everyone who learned to play the accordion did so on their own without a teacher because there were no teachers...

 

[Dingo40]

Can one become a good accordion player by just playing and practicing without a teacher?

If you mean without a local teacher of accordion specifically, then I'd say there have been many competent accordionists in (countryside) Australia who learned to play accordion with the help of local piano teachers (due to a lack of specialist accordion specific teachers as such) utilising various commercially published courses of "accordion instruction ".
These days, you also have available a plethora of YouTube videos and the option of online instruction from skilled accordion specific teachers.

 

[Sunshinexxx]

Thank you for your fast replies Dingo49 and Debra. I am going through the Palmer H. Books and find through practice with the metronome I seem to progress. I tried to do the same with the guitar and found not much progress in 10 years, (self taught through books) to a complete still stand and finally found myself a good G.-teacher explaining the still stand and how to practice. I know lots of self taught guitar players so assumed to progress in time!
They are two very different instruments of course, but well known !!
I asked to avoid wasting time. Thanks again

 

[Pipemajor]

If you mean without ever learning basic things like music notation, without any notion of harmony or music history, without watching any videos that explain how to play the accordion... then the answer is very probably no.
But if you mean that as a person with music training, playing other instruments like for instance the piano, and with a good understanding of music and an inquisitive mind then probably you can become a good accordion player. After all, the accordion has not existed for that long (about 150 years) and at first everyone who learned to play the accordion did so on their own without a teacher because there were no teachers...

I seem to remember that the great Harry Hussey ( perhaps Terry can enlighten) had no musical training, but is a fantastic accordionist with quite a few cds to his name

 

[ColoRodney]

I took piano lessons from elementary school through college, but I've never taken an accordion lesson. I don't hold myself out as a "great" accordion player, but I'm perfectly competent and have had plenty of paid gigs over the years. Knowing my music theory and piano scales were key to that, as well as having the interest and opportunity to work on a wide variety of musical styles. And listening to and watching plenty of better accordionists.

 

[Giovanni]

You'd be surprised how many accordion (or in general music) players do not know what enharmonic spelling means. In sheet music for beginners it is also quite common to have the music score contain an F# where it should use a G♭ just because beginners can read and find the F# more easily than the G♭. It's even worse with E# or F♭ (and B# or C♭). When someone asks me for instance how to play an E# I tell them that when they bought the accordion they only paid for the F key and they got the E# for free.
Whether a note should be sharp or flat really depends on the key the music is written in. a piece that's written in G♭ will require playing lots of flats and in F# lots of sharps, but on the accordion both sound just the same. A lot of music also gets transposed to make it easier to read and play. That's why you can get away for a long time with an accordion that does not have at least 12 bass rows (one for each note, so a 60 or 72 bass accorion) and can really just play everything with two repeated notes on each side (80 or 96 bass). I tend to not transpose music I arrange for my ensembles, but there are two exceptions: 1) sometimes the piece doesn't quite fit within the standard 41 key PA keyboard but does fit when transposed up or down by a half-note or perhaps a whole note, and 2) sometimes the piece is just quite hard to read and becomes a lot easier when transposed. (For instance, I transposed Dvorak's Humoresque nr. 7 from G♭ up to G and that makes it a lot easier.)

I did a similar thing with ennio morricone's "Deborah theme" the sheet music is in the key of E. With lots of sharps and incidental notes. I watched the YouTube of Luigi Brutti playing the theme on the korg digital accordion in the key F wow much easier for me to play. It's made my day.

 

[debra]

I did a similar thing with ennio morricone's "Deborah theme" the sheet music is in the key of E. With lots of sharps and incidental notes. I watched the YouTube of Luigi Brutti playing the theme on the korg digital accordion in the key F wow much easier for me to play. It's made my day.

Dvorak's Humoresque nr. 7 is quite a bit easier in G than the original in Gb.
But I sometimes also transpose to help out the poor people who have accordions with just 41 notes (low F to high A). An example is my ensemble arrangement of "Ladies in Lavender" (by Nigel Hess). I made an arrangement in the original in D major and then also one in C major for accordions without a high B.
Transposing from E to F is not something I would do to make it easier, but I would do it to avoid the need for the low E.

 

[Giovanni]

Dvorak's Humoresque nr. 7 is quite a bit easier in G than the original in Gb.
But I sometimes also transpose to help out the poor people who have accordions with just 41 notes (low F to high A). An example is my ensemble arrangement of "Ladies in Lavender" (by Nigel Hess). I made an arrangement in the original in D major and then also one in C major for accordions without a high B.
Transposing from E to F is not something I would do to make it easier, but I would do it to avoid the need for the low E.

It's a fair point I appreciate your comment. ....................but will stick with the Key of F

 

[Rosie C]

Thank you for your fast replies Dingo49 and Debra. I am going through the Palmer H. Books and find through practice with the metronome I seem to progress.

I rather like the PH books. Our band is currently rehearsing "Vegetables on Parade" from book 1 for an Oktoberfest video!

 

[Alan Sharkis]

You'd be surprised how many accordion (or in general music) players do not know what enharmonic spelling means. In sheet music for beginners it is also quite common to have the music score contain an F# where it should use a G♭ just because beginners can read and find the F# more easily than the G♭. It's even worse with E# or F♭ (and B# or C♭). When someone asks me for instance how to play an E# I tell them that when they bought the accordion they only paid for the F key and they got the E# for free.
Whether a note should be sharp or flat really depends on the key the music is written in. a piece that's written in G♭ will require playing lots of flats and in F# lots of sharps, but on the accordion both sound just the same. A lot of music also gets transposed to make it easier to read and play. That's why you can get away for a long time with an accordion that does not have at least 12 bass rows (one for each note, so a 60 or 72 bass accorion) and can really just play everything with two repeated notes on each side (80 or 96 bass). I tend to not transpose music I arrange for my ensembles, but there are two exceptions: 1) sometimes the piece doesn't quite fit within the standard 41 key PA keyboard but does fit when transposed up or down by a half-note or perhaps a whole note, and 2) sometimes the piece is just quite hard to read and becomes a lot easier when transposed. (For instance, I transposed Dvorak's Humoresque nr. 7 from G♭ up to G and that makes it a lot easier.)

Strictly speaking about bass button naming schemes, Stradella layout and 96 or 120 bass, the buttons toward the floor from C that are not naturals have flat names and the buttons toward the ceiling above C that are bot naturals have sharp names, or so I’ve been told by teachers and by looking at some diagrams.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Having an accordion teacher who also performs on accordion is the ideal. I say this because too many piano/keyboard players who never played an accordion themselves claim that they can teach accordion, at least in countries where ‘accordion’ means PA. Finding an accordion teacher who plays accordion and is within an hour’s travel can be a chore.

The next alternative would be to find a teacher who gives lessons via Zoom, Skype, or similar service.

Failing both of these, Palmer-Hughes on your own is a good series — up to a point, and that point varies from one learner to another. Method books have weak points that only personal contact with a teacher can overcome. For example, suggested fingering in a method book doesn’t work well for every learner, but a good teacher can spot a problem in fingering for a specific learner and modify the printed fingering so that learner can get over a sticking point. That same teacher can, later on, teach a learner how to figure out correct fingering on a specific piece of music for themselves.

There are other examples of how a teacher can work to help a learner overcome a weak point in a method book; too many to list them all here. But I can give you this one: a teacher can also help to choose supplementary materials at the appropriate stages of a learner’s development.

Finally, learning to play accordion, or any skill set for that matter, shouldn’t be a solitary process, or even restricted to a teacher-learner experience. Participating in a forum like this is a great way to gain advice, get encouragement, and have a sense if companionship.

 

[Tom]

Having an accordion teacher who also performs on accordion is the ideal. I say this because too many piano/keyboard players who never played an accordion themselves claim that they can teach accordion, at least in countries where ‘accordion’ means PA. Finding an accordion teacher who plays accordion and is within an hour’s travel can be a chore.

The next alternative would be to find a teacher who gives lessons via Zoom, Skype, or similar service.

Failing both of these, Palmer-Hughes on your own is a good series — up to a point, and that point varies from one learner to another. Method books have weak points that only personal contact with a teacher can overcome. For example, suggested fingering in a method book doesn’t work well for every learner, but a good teacher can spot a problem in fingering for a specific learner and modify the printed fingering so that learner can get over a sticking point. That same teacher can, later on, teach a learner how to figure out correct fingering on a specific piece of music for themselves.

There are other examples of how a teacher can work to help a learner overcome a weak point in a method book; too many to list them all here. But I can give you this one: a teacher can also help to choose supplementary materials at the appropriate stages of a learner’s development.

Finally, learning to play accordion, or any skill set for that matter, shouldn’t be a solitary process, or even restricted to a teacher-learner experience. Participating in a forum like this is a great way to gain advice, get encouragement, and have a sense if companionship.

Good points Alan! For many a good teacher is not available in their area which means finding one on the internet. No problem. So you may be able to find a good teacher at $60/hr. (More likely $100). You’re gonna need 30 - 40 one hour sessions to get real value. So you’re looking at $2000+ just to get going, especially for the thick headed like me. The good, competent teacher definitely deserves this, but it’s hard to justify, when you pay not so much more for your accordion. For you retired dentists out there, no problem, but for the rest of us, we need more convincing. Maybe I’m way off, I don’t know. Who’s had really good luck? Pray tell….

 

[dak]

You'd be surprised how many accordion (or in general music) players do not know what enharmonic spelling means. In sheet music for beginners it is also quite common to have the music score contain an F# where it should use a G♭ just because beginners can read and find the F# more easily than the G♭.

Part of it may be due to the notes being entered by MIDI which does not distinguish between F♯ and G♭ even if the accordion actually has two different buttons/chord rows for them. If you don't spell-correct afterwards, you get the phonetic spelling...

 

[Rosie C]

This is a suitable point to recommend "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony", Ross Duffin, ISBN 0393334201. Perfect your Christmas stockings!

 

[Dakota_Squeeze]

Wow, you lot are amazing! So many replies. Thank you all. I wonder if I could ask you lot more 'silly' questions then?
..and if you would reply to this thread because you get some notification?...
Some of you mentioned messing around with various instruments on their own and most accordion players I bet are self taught because other than the guitar you/ one can progress without giving up.
Can one become a good accordion player by just playing and practicing without a teacher?

No offense to the forumites but you're talking to a group of accordion elitists, not in a bad way, but people that have dedicated an extraordinary amount of time into the knowledge of playing "correctly" and of high opinion instrument quality. Which is fine and dandy but the vast majority of people are playing for fun and perfectly satisfied with being able to play along with others or put together a nice sounding tune.

The answer is absolutely yes, you can become a good accordion player without any amount of help as long as your definition of "good" is measured in the amount of enjoyment you're getting out of it.