changing from PA to CBA

[Tony G]

Hi...
Years ago I decided to change from PA to CBA (C system) with free bass. Now these many years later I'm having doubts. I find that, as well as I know the chromatic keyboards and have easy facility, I still have a very difficult time learning new pieces. It seems very laborious and very slow. I have to be focused on every detail all the time. Nothing ever seems to come together.
As a young person on piano accordion I worked just as hard, but I came to just sense everything about my instrument and could work naturally off of lead sheets or classical scores. Of course, I read all that easily, but applying it to the chromatic takes attention to every note, every time.
I'd appreciate advice and comment from other players who have made this transition.
Have you had similar difficulty after years of study?
I'm so frustrated I'm seriously considering finding a piano accordion with only tradition stradella basses. I know the limitations, but it appears that I myself am my biggest limitation on the bayan. If I can't make the music flow, and have nothing to share, what is the point? The instrument is not the problem, but in my hands it seems not to be complete.
What am I missing?
Thanks for your comments and advice.
TonyG

 

[JerryPH]

The instrument is not the problem, but in my hands it seems not to be complete.
What am I missing?

Paul DeBra is going to be able to give a better answer, but:
- how old are you today?
- how many years have you invested in the CBA?
- did you play Free Bass before on the PA accordion?
- how much time did you invest in the process on a daily basis and how many days a week did you play?
- did you use a teacher or all by yourself?
- what method did you use to learn the CBA and Free Bass? (ie" was it structured, starting with the basics like scales, arpeggios, etc, or just wing it?)

It's not unusual for it to take 10-15 years of structured dedicated work to get to where you were on the PA on the CBA if you were an intermediate player or higher. That does not include the extra effort and time it would take to learn Free Bass if this was new to you.

Also, the older one gets, the longer it takes, that's just a fact of life.

 

[Dingo40]

I read all that easily, but applying it to the chromatic takes attention to every note, every time.

I don't play CBA.
Why?
Well, my take is, a CBA keyboard is intrinsically more complex than a PA one.
For me, a PA is more like a piano, "linear", one note for each key and this note to key relationship is constant. If you want that note, you go to that key!
A CBA is "lateral ". Like a guitar, there are several different locations for the same note: decisions, decisions!
When playing a CBA, you need to decide just how you're going to produce that note or remember how to do it for this particular piece as you might have done it differently for other pleces.
This requires far more "random " memory to process, to make choices, whenever you play!
More brainwork!
No wonder you find it trying!
Just how it seems to me.

 

[Ffingers]

I don't play CBA.
Why?
Well, my take is, a CBA keyboard is intrinsically more complex than a PA one.
For me, a PA is more like a piano, "linear", one note for each key and this note to key relationship is constant. If you want that note, you go to that key!
A CBA is "lateral ". Like a guitar, there are several different locations for the same note: decisions, decisions!
When playing a CBA, you need to decide just how you're going to produce that note or remember how to do it for this particular piece as you might have done it differently for other pleces.
This requires far more "random " memory to process, to make choices, whenever you play!
More brainwork!
No wonder you find it trying!
Just how it seems to me.

But, but, but,...only three basic fingering patterns which are usable across the whole of 5/6 row keyboard!

"Spoiled for choice" would be a more accurate description since each piece of music can have a custom keyboard use for greater convenience and articulation.

Yup! I'm learning fast, and very happy with my original, at that time highly uninformed, choice of B griff CBA.

Try this for info:





as well as his subsequent videos on the same topic.

 

[Dingo40]

It's more to do with my own personal lack of RAM than with the CBA!

 

[Tony G]

Paul DeBra is going to be able to give a better answer, but:
- how old are you today?
- how many years have you invested in the CBA?
- did you play Free Bass before on the PA accordion?
- how much time did you invest in the process on a daily basis and how many days a week did you play?
- did you use a teacher or all by yourself?
- what method did you use to learn the CBA and Free Bass? (ie" was it structured, starting with the basics like scales, arpeggios, etc, or just wing it?)

It's not unusual for it to take 10-15 years of structured dedicated work to get to where you were on the PA on the CBA if you were an intermediate player or higher. That does not include the extra effort and time it would take to learn Free Bass if this was new to you.

Also, the older one gets, the longer it takes, that's just a fact of life.

Suffice it to say I've invested enough time and effort over 25 years or so that I shouldn't be stuck like this at this point.
I was a highly advanced player on piano accordion and played C system chromatic free bass with that. I had no technical hurdles on piano accordion w/ stradella bass. I had explored CBA long before committing to it. Due to some very bad advice I delayed committing.
I have always worked methodically using all the basic structures. I have years of studying piano and violin, but started with accordion. In all the years that I restored and tuned accordions I would check my work by playing sequences of chords, arpeggios and scales. Always, the keyboard felt as if I had never left it.
Oddly, I actually can sight read more easily on the chromatic, even with both hands. My problem seems to be around the learning of new works.
Ok, so I'm old...that's the answer.

 

[Tony G]

I don't play CBA.
Why?
Well, my take is, a CBA keyboard is intrinsically more complex than a PA one.
For me, a PA is more like a piano, "linear", one note for each key and this note to key relationship is constant. If you want that note, you go to that key!
A CBA is "lateral ". Like a guitar, there are several different locations for the same note: decisions, decisions!
When playing a CBA, you need to decide just how you're going to produce that note or remember how to do it for this particular piece as you might have done it differently for other pleces.
This requires far more "random " memory to process, to make choices, whenever you play!
More brainwork!
No wonder you find it trying!
Just how it seems to me.

Even though I think that the buttons work a bit better on the accordion because of the vertical orientation, the 'piano' keyboard has been around for 100's of years. That's no accident. The difficulty of learning all the keys is always overstated. Careful, methodical study resolves that.
The linear nature of the keyboard is clearer than all attempts to supplant it.
Thanks for your comments. You lay out all the basic reasons why the keyboard works.
Thanks for that.
Tony G

 

[saundersbp]

Oddly, I actually can sight read more easily on the chromatic, even with both hands. My problem seems to be around the learning of new works.

That does sound on the face of it a bit contradictory?

 

[dak]

A CBA is "lateral ". Like a guitar, there are several different locations for the same note: decisions, decisions!

Nope, really. When sightreading, you really just use the first three rows. Take a look at actual players. Chords draw the fourth row into consideration with some willingness, but other than that, it comes into play mostly when phrases have resisted becoming friendly to play for too long. Essentially when you are optimizing stuff exactly because you are not sightreading it any more but adding it to repertoire. That's quite less decision-making than you'd do on a guitar.

 

[debra]

My wife and I having made the switch about 14 years ago now I can only say: give it time (and practice).
When we started with CBA (after what felt like already a whole lifetime of PA) we were warned it would take 6 years to get back to the old level.
That warning was justified. While we could learn to play something at our old level after maybe 2 years it would take a lot more practice to learn to play these difficult pieces. And as we play mostly in ensembles we needed to only focus on the treble side for the most part. (The bass side was of course still the same as before on PA.)
14 years into the game it kinda all feels natural now, but I sometimes still get a "brain fart" or "glitch" where my brain knows which note to play but still guides my fingers to the wrong position.
What makes life harder is that much more than with PA there are different button sizes and distances. We made the mistake of ignoring this issue when buying instruments and now have instruments with three different button sizes (and corresponding distances between notes). Small differences don't matter too much. PA players struggle when moving between a ladies size keyboard, a "normal" keyboard or a supersized keyboard (like on the Hohner Morino M series), but not when switching between a normal 41 key keyboard and a 45/47 key keyboard (which has just very slightly narrower keys). On CBA our smallest buttons fit 5 buttons in the same space as just 4 buttons on the accordion with the largest buttons. Richard Galliano plays a Victoria with the largest buttons and in an interview he "complained" about how hard he finds it to play on a Cavagnolo (French style) accordion with the smallest buttons.
So when you just keep practicing and stay on accordions with the same size buttons... you should be fine after enough years of practice, if you have the pleasure of living that long.

 

[JerryPH]

Suffice it to say I've invested enough time and effort over 25 years or so that I shouldn't be stuck like this at this point.
I was a highly advanced player on piano accordion and played C system chromatic free bass with that. I had no technical hurdles on piano accordion w/ stradella bass. I had explored CBA long before committing to it. Due to some very bad advice I delayed committing.
I have always worked methodically using all the basic structures. I have years of studying piano and violin, but started with accordion. In all the years that I restored and tuned accordions I would check my work by playing sequences of chords, arpeggios and scales. Always, the keyboard felt as if I had never left it.
Oddly, I actually can sight read more easily on the chromatic, even with both hands. My problem seems to be around the learning of new works.
Ok, so I'm old...that's the answer.

Well, you also could be like me, just at that place where it doesn’t make sense to put decades of time just to get back to where you were decades ago. I acknowledge a couple things, CBA at the top level offers the ability to play the most technically challenging pieces easier and a converter places the hand in a more comfortable position… and yet my heart tells me that I am perfectly happy with huge PA MIII instruments. I know myself and had no desire to start over in my 50’s, much less now in my 60’s.

You still have 3 choices:
- stay with the current system, play more songs that are less challenging
- move back to the PA & Free Bass
- do both!

Ultimately do what makes you happy, life is too short to bang your head against walls.

 

[dak]

As a young person on piano accordion I worked just as hard, but I came to just sense everything about my instrument and could work naturally off of lead sheets or classical scores. Of course, I read all that easily, but applying it to the chromatic takes attention to every note, every time.
I'd appreciate advice and comment from other players who have made this transition.
Have you had similar difficulty after years of study?

I've been playing CBA for more than 15 years or so (essentially switching after a year of PA). It's been more than 20 years since I essentially stopped playing violin: I had a few years of lessons as a child, and kind of an obsession in my 20s. Two years ago I decided to take it up again in a small ensemble. Within 3 months I was delegated to first violin. The instrument feels natural to me (of course it is quite more hands-on than keyboard instruments). I am not there with accordion. In a way, that's frustrating. I suspect that your PA/CBA dilemma is of a similar nature, that you learnt to "speak" PA at an age where the brain was more willing to warp itself to understanding the musical world in terms of the particular instrument.

I still wouldn't recommend returning to PA: should your back become weaker, CBA stays manageable for longer than PA.

 

[Tony G]

That does sound on the face of it a bit contradictory?

As Dak pointed out, sight reading is not the same as trying to master something difficult. I usually use sight reading to explore or to start a piece. so, I guess that's why. But my problem is more in the area of developing repertory. Somehow, even when I can do the piece nothing sticks. Maybe it is just being old.
Anyway, thanks for taking the trouble to respond. I appreciate the feed back...it all helps.
Tony G

 

[Tony G]

I've been playing CBA for more than 15 years or so (essentially switching after a year of PA). It's been more than 20 years since I essentially stopped playing violin: I had a few years of lessons as a child, and kind of an obsession in my 20s. Two years ago I decided to take it up again in a small ensemble. Within 3 months I was delegated to first violin. The instrument feels natural to me (of course it is quite more hands-on than keyboard instruments). I am not there with accordion. In a way, that's frustrating. I suspect that your PA/CBA dilemma is of a similar nature, that you learnt to "speak" PA at an age where the brain was more willing to warp itself to understanding the musical world in terms of the particular instrument.

I still wouldn't recommend returning to PA: should your back become weaker, CBA stays manageable for longer than PA.

Dak: I think you have identified an important part of the learning process. ...Having "learnt to 'speak' PA at an age where the brain was more willing to warp itself to understanding the musical world in terms of a particular instrument." This is a crucial understanding and is centered on the (apparent) fact that age matters in the learning of skills.
Except for my first teacher, from whom I learned the most, I was surrounded by people always saying that the instrument can always be improved and I should adapt, and with hard work you can do anything. My first teacher never once suggested that the accordion was a deficient instrument. All that came after he had to stop teaching because of the changes in music economics. I started going down the rabbit hole. I've come out on the other end with one set of very well developed skills tied to a particular instrument and a bunch of less well developed skills.
Thanks for your comments. It's a real help.
Tony G

 

[Tony G]

Well, you also could be like me, just at that place where it doesn’t make sense to put decades of time just to get back to where you were decades ago. I acknowledge a couple things, CBA at the top level offers the ability to play the most technically challenging pieces easier and a converter places the hand in a more comfortable position… and yet my heart tells me that I am perfectly happy with huge PA MIII instruments. I know myself and had no desire to start over in my 50’s, much less now in my 60’s.

You still have 3 choices:
- stay with the current system, play more songs that are less challenging
- move back to the PA & Free Bass
- do both!

Ultimately do what makes you happy, life is too short to bang your head against walls.

Jerry,
Thanks for this. I do agree especially about the functionality of the converter. I have a Giulietti Super (61 key chromatic/5-row bassetti with 2 stradella rows) it's a great instrument in many ways. But the position of the left hand relative to the free notes only works with the bellows at drawn out a minimum amount. The converter is much more practical...and for other reasons as well.
But, the essential point you make so nicely is about decades: 'it doesn’t make sense to put decades of time just to get back to where you were decades ago'. I think this may be exactly what's going on. I worked really hard as a young person, achieved a very serious level of skill and somehow became convinced to walk away from it and start over. I just didn't understand what that really meant.
As I said, I would always have my hands on keyboard accordions doing work on them so I never lost the feel of the connection in spite of doing other stuff.
Obviously, I have some difficult decisions to sort out.
I really appreciate your insight. Thanks for taking the time.
Tony G

 

[Tony G]

My wife and I having made the switch about 14 years ago now I can only say: give it time (and practice).
When we started with CBA (after what felt like already a whole lifetime of PA) we were warned it would take 6 years to get back to the old level.
That warning was justified. While we could learn to play something at our old level after maybe 2 years it would take a lot more practice to learn to play these difficult pieces. And as we play mostly in ensembles we needed to only focus on the treble side for the most part. (The bass side was of course still the same as before on PA.)
14 years into the game it kinda all feels natural now, but I sometimes still get a "brain fart" or "glitch" where my brain knows which note to play but still guides my fingers to the wrong position.
What makes life harder is that much more than with PA there are different button sizes and distances. We made the mistake of ignoring this issue when buying instruments and now have instruments with three different button sizes (and corresponding distances between notes). Small differences don't matter too much. PA players struggle when moving between a ladies size keyboard, a "normal" keyboard or a supersized keyboard (like on the Hohner Morino M series), but not when switching between a normal 41 key keyboard and a 45/47 key keyboard (which has just very slightly narrower keys). On CBA our smallest buttons fit 5 buttons in the same space as just 4 buttons on the accordion with the largest buttons. Richard Galliano plays a Victoria with the largest buttons and in an interview he "complained" about how hard he finds it to play on a Cavagnolo (French style) accordion with the smallest buttons.
So when you just keep practicing and stay on accordions with the same size buttons... you should be fine after enough years of practice, if you have the pleasure of living that long.

Yes, the pleasure of living that long. I've had chromatic accordions with 2 of the different size buttons...and I agree it's an issue. I've had 2 Giulietti's and they have the big buttons. The smaller scale is more common on larger chromatics now, as you know (not the 46(47) key chromatics).
The 'glitch' you describe is familiar. It is the place where my problem started. And the kind of glitch matters. I've felt that I should be past the type of glitch that has me wondering what's going on...and then not necessarily a quick fix.
But it's also worth pointing out that Galliano, whom I greatly admire, played on the Victoria 46-key model when he was young. So he also developed speaking accordion music (as Dak might say) through that instrument. So the Cavagnolo presents a problem, but not for thousands of French players. It is so very personal.
I appreciate you sharing your experience and taking all this time.
Tony G
PS I've seen your ensemble arrangements in the Petrucci library. Good work.

 

[Tony G]

Hi...
Years ago I decided to change from PA to CBA (C system) with free bass. Now these many years later I'm having doubts. I find that, as well as I know the chromatic keyboards and have easy facility, I still have a very difficult time learning new pieces. It seems very laborious and very slow. I have to be focused on every detail all the time. Nothing ever seems to come together.
As a young person on piano accordion I worked just as hard, but I came to just sense everything about my instrument and could work naturally off of lead sheets or classical scores. Of course, I read all that easily, but applying it to the chromatic takes attention to every note, every time.
I'd appreciate advice and comment from other players who have made this transition.
Have you had similar difficulty after years of study?
I'm so frustrated I'm seriously considering finding a piano accordion with only tradition stradella basses. I know the limitations, but it appears that I myself am my biggest limitation on the bayan. If I can't make the music flow, and have nothing to share, what is the point? The instrument is not the problem, but in my hands it seems not to be complete.
What am I missing?
Thanks for your comments and advice.
TonyG

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful, carefully considered responses. Obviously, I have some decisions to make. It is a real help to be in touch with people understand the problem and the personal implications.
Thanks again.
TonyG

 

[Walker]

Thanks for sharing your accordion journey with us Tony G. Each of us have our own musical paths to take in life and sometimes that involves trying different types of accordions. Sometimes it seems like the grass is greener on the other side. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't... only you can know the right answer for you. Good luck and keep posting - you clearly have great knowledge and experiences to share with us all.

W.​

 

[Vladimir M.]

Each of us have our own musical paths to take in life and sometimes that involves trying different types of accordions.

My background: I've been playing the piano accordion since I was six years old (I'm 51). However, until the age of fifteen I played exclusively on PA with a standard bass, from fifteen I learned to play an instrument with a freebass (C-griff, older “bassetti” system of three additional rows of freebass buttons, not converter). I am only an amateur musician; I also play the pipe organ in the church.

My experience: I feel safe (and natural) on a standard bass, not a melodic bass. It is very clear to feel that I started with melodic bass relatively late and was not brought up with this system from early childhood. In case of stress / improvisation, I always tend to move my fingers from freebass manual to standardbass manual. From the knowledge of my well-known musicians, it follows that in the case of a change from PA to CBA, the limit is (in general, there may be exceptions, of course) 18 years of a person's life. After this limit, it is much more difficult, especially if one has already played the PA. Despite the fact that CBA offers indisputable advantages in terms of playing and technology, in the case of an adult, an inventory of one's condition must be carried out thoroughly when making this decision (PA→CBA).

• In the case of health and anatomical reasons, I think it is always worth it.
• If a professional at the age of 25 feels limited by the PA system and decides to switch to CBA, it is always worth it.
• If a retired senior decides to try the another (=CBA) system, it is always worth it.

But in my case, it would not be possible. I also play another keyboard instrument. I'm not a professional. I have very little time for my valuable hobby (accordion). I will never be that skilled of a player that options of a PA were too narrow for me and therefore any CBA system would be needed. I am a working person at this moment and any CBA is useless to me. If one day I am a pensioner, I do not rule out that I would also devote myself to CBA out of interest.

I wish all members of the forum good health and successful and right PA/CBA decisions.

Best regards, Vladimir

 

[TomBR]

I don't think you've said how old you are Tony G and that's fine and totally up to you.
I'm 63 and I've been learning clarinet for four years, formally with a teacher, unlike all the folky instruments I've picked up on my own over the years.
I enjoy playing the clarinet but I have to admit I'm disappointed with my rate of progress and particularly the way things just don't seem to "stick" like they used to.
I have a lesson next week and I'm planning to discuss with my teacher what makes sense in terms of aims and objectives.