• If you haven't done so already, please add a location to your profile. This helps when people are trying to assist you, suggest resources, etc. Thanks (Click the "X" to the top right of this message to disable it)

changing from PA to CBA

I don't play CBA.
Why?
Well, my take is, a CBA keyboard is intrinsically more complex than a PA one.
For me, a PA is more like a piano, "linear", one note for each key and this note to key relationship is constant. If you want that note, you go to that key!
A CBA is "lateral ". Like a guitar, there are several different locations for the same note: decisions, decisions!
When playing a CBA, you need to decide just how you're going to produce that note or remember how to do it for this particular piece as you might have done it differently for other pleces.
This requires far more "random " memory to process, to make choices, whenever you play!
More brainwork!🤔
No wonder you find it trying!🙂
Just how it seems to me. 🙂
Interesting you make the comparison with guitar. I was told the CBA can be easier for guitarists to learn as we are accustomed to learning through 'making shapes' with the hand. And as with guitar, every now and then you see someone's fingering which doesn't make sense to anyone but the player!
 
As Dak pointed out, sight reading is not the same as trying to master something difficult. I usually use sight reading to explore or to start a piece. so, I guess that's why. But my problem is more in the area of developing repertory. Somehow, even when I can do the piece nothing sticks. Maybe it is just being old.
Anyway, thanks for taking the trouble to respond. I appreciate the feed back...it all helps.
Tony G
I understand Tony. I feel the same about developing more repertoire. I agree that this may be a common issue among older accordionists. I don’t have a good answer and it’s an issue any teachers on here could think about for helping their students. I am currently concentrating on quantity over quality in repertoire, which is not ideal, but a fact. Thing is, some tunes stick easier and faster than others, and this is a determining factor. I try to add expression to a number of easier tunes while simultaneously working on the more difficult tunes that I desire.

I am hoping that I can develop better sight reading as another partial solution. I could then bring a stack of sheet music that I have not memorized, but can play well enough to fill time. Again, not ideal.

Anyway, good luck to you and please let us know anything you come up with.
 
I don't think you've said how old you are Tony G and that's fine and totally up to you.
I'm 63 and I've been learning clarinet for four years, formally with a teacher, unlike all the folky instruments I've picked up on my own over the years.
I enjoy playing the clarinet but I have to admit I'm disappointed with my rate of progress and particularly the way things just don't seem to "stick" like they used to.
I have a lesson next week and I'm planning to discuss with my teacher what makes sense in terms of aims and objectives.

My teacher - who is of advanced years like myself - keeps reminding me that outpacing his talented junior students is something that I should stop trying to do. Keeping up with the more modest achievers is quite good enough.

But that has never been my style - I just always get impatient with myself and want to outpace myself !

Age does not wisdom entail. 😒
 
my only competition is myself

i dunno why, but i have always felt that way since i was a kid
I had my weekly zoom yesterday with my accordionist friend from before I moved. He is the type that is the best at everything he does. I think there may be an element of insecurity there. Every time we play he asks me to agree that he is the best accordionist in ## city. That the version of the song he just played was the best I’ve heard. Kind of amusing really, but his heart is in the right place and gigging at 84 is noble. I generally just agree because it’s easier. I, however, am only the best at posting, my accordion playing is less than stellar and I have lost all interest in competition. I only want to appear competent and not repeat songs in 4 hours, that’s my competition with myself.
 
I had my weekly zoom yesterday with my accordionist friend from before I moved. He is the type that is the best at everything he does. I think there may be an element of insecurity there. Every time we play he asks me to agree that he is the best accordionist in ## city. That the version of the song he just played was the best I’ve heard. Kind of amusing really, but his heart is in the right place and gigging at 84 is noble. I generally just agree because it’s easier. I, however, am only the best at posting, my accordion playing is less than stellar and I have lost all interest in competition. I only want to appear competent and not repeat songs in 4 hours, that’s my competition with myself.
I am still working on extending my repertoire to 10 minutes but it's hard-going.
 
At age 69, I bought my first CBA after 50 plus years of PA. this spring. I bought it for the reduced size, weight, and challenge to this aging brain. After about 3 months of playing with my E Soprani, I traded it towards a similarly sized Fisitalia. If the Palmer-Hughes method books are familiar to you, I sped through book 1, and subsequent books progressed slower. After about 9 months of playing CBA, I'm about a third through Book 5. ( I play for my own enjoyment, so I don't fret over "performance acceptable" playing, instead I aim for merely what sounds good to me with minimal goofs.
In my 50+ years of playing PA, I made it through the first couple of tunes in Book 10.
As a kid, I began lessons at age 11, and continued into age 13, when I realized 1967 radio and tv only had Welk and Floren as a role model-- not really what I was looking for. The accordion sat in the closet-- never to play "Glow Worm" and "Ragtime Cowboy Joe" for about 25 years.
All this intro, is merely to say as a kid my progress was steady. As an adult who took up the accordion again in the 1990s my progress was definitely slower.
I think it's all about motivation. I wish I could play the pieces I could on my PA. My motivations remain the new accordion's size, weight, and now the $3000 I dropped on this "experiment". I don't see an issue playing both, especially when I pick up new, sort-of difficult pieces for the PA.
Our forum consists of so many erudite, thoughtful contributors. But it was ultimately Paul DeBra who has, and continues, to convince me not to give up.
 
I’m another newcomer to the CBA, having got my first one just over 6 months ago. I am 51 and have played the piano accordion since I was 4 or 5. My CBA is a 60 bass C System Maugein with Stradella bass. I can only practice the CBA every week or even two weeks due to severely disabling progressive neurological disease. I am self teaching using the Maugain tuition books. And I’m writing elsewhere here how I’m getting on (that thread also includes lots of advice from other long-time PA players who've taken up CBA). I have been lucky that I find the CBA very natural, and was playing it by ear from the first time I got it out of the box from France - my very first time trying CBA. Quickly I was playing from my own favourite sheet music, automatically mentally working out fingerings, with no need to write them in. Based on what some other learners have written I think I’m very fortunate. Some of us find CBA easier to take to than others. However I absolutely don’t expect to ever be anywhere near as proficient as I am on my PA. Which I am continuing to play and adore. The CBA is a whole new challenge, which I’m enjoying immensely, but I have very modest expectations. But again I think I’ve been very lucky. And we are all different re what works for us. I wish you the best in your accordion fun, whatever and whenever you play.
 
Last edited:
Every time we play he asks me to agree that he is the best accordionist in ## city.
I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about (haha). That kind of stuff really has no value to anyone else except for him (if he is who I expect he is, he did it with me too, and I didn't take it seriously), and you are a gentleman in letting him have his moment on a regular basis.

After the craziness that is my life calms down after the holidays, we should all do another zoom session and have a little fun again.
 
I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about (haha). That kind of stuff really has no value to anyone else except for him (if he is who I expect he is, he did it with me too, and I didn't take it seriously), and you are a gentleman in letting him have his moment on a regular basis.

After the craziness that is my life calms down after the holidays, we should all do another zoom session and have a little fun again.
Actually, he’s just a regular guy that I zoom with, Jerry, not a teacher or forum member. We would play in person once a week, and did some gigs together. His heart is in the right place; he’s just very sure of himself. 😉.

Definitely we should get together on zoom when you can! Maybe another project?
 
Actually, he’s just a regular guy that I zoom with, Jerry, not a teacher or forum member. We would play in person once a week, and did some gigs together. His heart is in the right place; he’s just very sure of himself. 😉.

Definitely we should get together on zoom when you can! Maybe another project?
How about a forum zoom meeting, can,t find a live person to play with near me.
 
How about a forum zoom meeting, can,t find a live person to play with near me.
Good idea! I’ve suggested this in the past and had some great zooms with some great forum members. I did not get much interest in a general zoom where anyone could join in. But I would join if someone else set it up. As far as a zoom with me and you, no prob, hit me up, I love it! You can’t play together because of internet lag, but still fun. Actually, you can play together as long as one person turns the volume off, not quite the same but ok.
 
Good idea! I’ve suggested this in the past and had some great zooms with some great forum members. I did not get much interest in a general zoom where anyone could join in. But I would join if someone else set it up. As far as a zoom with me and you, no prob, hit me up, I love it! You can’t play together because of internet lag, but still fun. Actually, you can play together as long as one person turns the volume off, not quite the same but ok.
Regarding internet lag, there is a sound-only program called "Jamulus". During the lockdowns, the accordion ensemble I'd been playing in had been using it for rehearsals (two-person meetups with masks were still permitted, so I could help with physical setup). If you have a common server within about 100mi or so, it works pretty well for playing together. Wouldn't work for intercontinental though: there is something like the speed of light after all. You need headphones (no echo compensation/suppression) and soundcards and internet connections without unnecessary lag (a reason to replace WLAN with an ethernet cable while in session).

Very good practice for maintaining robust tempo as a group. Sometimes it helped to inject an arranger (used as rhythm machine or as MIDI expander for the drum parts) into the rehearsal to have one "player" unaffected by hearing the others with slight lag.
 
Regarding internet lag, there is a sound-only program called "Jamulus". During the lockdowns, the accordion ensemble I'd been playing in had been using it for rehearsals (two-person meetups with masks were still permitted, so I could help with physical setup). If you have a common server within about 100mi or so, it works pretty well for playing together. Wouldn't work for intercontinental though: there is something like the speed of light after all. You need headphones (no echo compensation/suppression) and soundcards and internet connections without unnecessary lag (a reason to replace WLAN with an ethernet cable while in session).

Very good practice for maintaining robust tempo as a group. Sometimes it helped to inject an arranger (used as rhythm machine or as MIDI expander for the drum parts) into the rehearsal to have one "player" unaffected by hearing the others with slight lag.
Thanks Dak, I’ve tried Jamulus and it seems pretty good, lots of potential.
 
Hi...
Years ago I decided to change from PA to CBA (C system) with free bass. Now these many years later I'm having doubts. I find that, as well as I know the chromatic keyboards and have easy facility, I still have a very difficult time learning new pieces. It seems very laborious and very slow. I have to be focused on every detail all the time. Nothing ever seems to come together.
As a young person on piano accordion I worked just as hard, but I came to just sense everything about my instrument and could work naturally off of lead sheets or classical scores. Of course, I read all that easily, but applying it to the chromatic takes attention to every note, every time.
I'd appreciate advice and comment from other players who have made this transition.
Have you had similar difficulty after years of study?
I'm so frustrated I'm seriously considering finding a piano accordion with only tradition stradella basses. I know the limitations, but it appears that I myself am my biggest limitation on the bayan. If I can't make the music flow, and have nothing to share, what is the point? The instrument is not the problem, but in my hands it seems not to be complete.
What am I missing?
Thanks for your comments and advice.
TonyG
Hi Tony, just saw this post. I’ve had to make the transition to CBA too. Osteoarthritis in my hands has taken away my ability to use my thumbs on a piano keyboard. Fortunately have access to a Roland Fr4xb. I gave my wonderful acoustic PA with a C-system converter bass to a friend. He’s a Professor of Jazz Performance at music school. So it is in good hands.
In my teens, my teacher had me practicing 2-octave major and melodic minor scales in both hands in all keys from the Shultz-Rizzo Scales and Apeggios book. I think Andy Rizzo was his teacher. At any rate, that build up a lot of facility in my left hand. Although, I was quite frustrated with the Stradella bass limitations. By my early 20s began investing free bass options. Tried 4-5 different systems. Settled on a Moschino system that I purchased from Mario M.
But I didn’t like the tonal balance between treble and bass sides. It wasn’t fun to practice it. Finally, in the early 2000s, now in my 60s, I lucked onto the wonderful acoustic PA with C-system converter bass mentioned above.
I started playing gigs again. Was in a couple different bands. Practiced Bach Inventions and Sinfonias and exercises from jazz piano books. My last gig was in February 2021 just as the covid pandemic was hitting my city.
About little over a year ago, I came to the realization that piano accordion would soon no longer be an option for me.
When I got the Roland Fr4xb it was configured for B-system. I started to change it to C-system. But it was then a borrowed instrument. I’ve so far left it in B-system. They are quite alike.
Since it was a new keyboard, it seemed as well as scales and arpeggios, basic books like Hanon and Czerny would be useful. Found many contemporary composers had their own jazz, blues, boogie woogie, et al versions. I prefer the Leo Alfassy Blues Hanon and Jazz Hanon editions. Each exercise is a musical mini etude of increasing difficulty.
More recently have found two great online sources for learning piano that are helpful for learning free bass accordion too.
The Canadian keyboard player Marine Lacoste offers a comprehensive site to learn rock and roll and blues piano. onlinerocklessons[dot]com has tons of play-along lessons on scales, chords, theory, tunes, and more. There’s downloadable sheet music and video lessons with scrolling sheet music on each. I thought I’d subscribe for a month or so to get started on my own. But am having so much fun and value, I’m still a paying member.
Another great learning resource is Harry Likas’s Patreon Page: patreon[dot]com/HarryLikas
He often posts his arrangements on FB too. So far he has uploaded 550+ arrangements of standards in different styles (stride, walking bass, shell voicings, etc.). Som are much easier than others. While written for piano, they sound great on free bass accordion too.
Hope this helps.
 
It's exactly this anti-advice form the forums that kept me from learning for the past 5-6 years. Conflicting info and extreme negativity.
Find a teacher and ignore everyone else. 10-15 years? Ignorant and mean.

I all depends on what kind of music and at what level of expertise you are aiming and, of course, your individual abilities.
By "abilities" I mean your own personal talents as well as your mental and physical flexibility.
Those personal abilities are often dormant and do not surface until a challenge of some kind requires them.
So, my advice is always: "Give it a go and see what eventuates".
There is little to lose, but plenty to gain even if is only discovering something at which you are not naturally gifted; even then you might find that you can develop the necessary skills through hard work and persistence.
The really essential factor is the enjoyment of the process, without which there is no point in proceeding.
 
It's exactly this anti-advice form the forums that kept me from learning for the past 5-6 years.
If you were really convinced internally that you wanted it and wanted an CBA accordion, then you wouldn't listen to any advice.
Do you really want this?

If so, simply do it!

Find a teacher and ignore everyone else. 10-15 years? Ignorant and mean.
It's hard to blindly give advice in a few sentences on an anonymous forum to someone we don't know. Hence the questions from Jerry. Realize that the questioning person was worth someone to answer and try to guide him in the right direction. Jerry PH is a great musician. He has experience and can give good advice. So, in summary: The less input information, the worse the advice.

Conflicting info and extreme negativity.
I apologize, but I consider your answer to be conflicting and not Jerry's reaction. Maybe you just need only a coach who supports you regardless of your real abilities or needs. No one wants to hurt anyone here, I'm sure of that!
Otherwise, I wish you all the best.

Vladimir
 
I'm 78 years old and have been playing PA since November 2022, Two weeks ago I bought a CBA (Scandalli Air III 96 bass). I have a hand condition (Dupuytren's Contractions both hands). My guess is that someday I will only be able to play the CBA. I play both every day. It has only been taking a minute or two when switching to the CBA for my fingers to realize there are buttons, not keys. I also own an accordina c-griff which I play sometimes in the evening and use it to work out fingering. My mental model for this is that I am learning 3 different musical instruments.
 
Back
Top