Changing Horses in Mid Stream

[Longshore]

Hi all,

I play small (ish) box accordions, namely CBA c system.
It was a natural progression (for me) as I came from playing diatonic accordions and concertinas.

I note with interest a few members that have changed from PA to CBA but has anybody gone the other way, and if so why?

Are there any advantages in playing PA over CBA unless you play the piano (which I don't), not so much for classical but run of the mill French/ Eastern European folk style fare.

A little bit of me just likes the idea of playing a small PA, but I can't really work out why.

I suspect it'd be a long road to travel down and the idea of owning both PA and CBA is unfeasible for many reasons.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

[Dingo40]

There are quite a few musicians (on YouTube ) who appear to be equally fluent with both CBA and PA?

 

[Longshore]

There are quite a few musicians (on YouTube ) who appear to be equally fluent with both CBA and PA?

Indeed you are right but for me it would have to be one or the other;
for a variety of reasons, many of which are not musical.

 

[saundersbp]

I think if you can play the CBA there isn't any sensible reason to go to the PA, unless of course you have a mania for glissando!

On purely musical grounds (and as someone that can play the piano/organ at a decent level) I am finding that the CBA is a superior form of the instrument because the range of notes is greater in a smaller space meaning you can achieve musical textures that would be impossible on a PA. I've only really discovered this huge advantage as I've got better at the CBA and now enjoying playing things like Spiegel im Spiegel (famous as used in the film 'Gravity') and lots of other music that would be out of bounds to a piano keyboard accordion.

 

[Longshore]

I think if you can play the CBA there isn't any sensible reason to go to the PA, unless of course you have a mania for glissando!

On purely musical grounds (and as someone that can play the piano/organ at a decent level) I am finding that the CBA is a superior form of the instrument because the range of notes is greater in a smaller space meaning you can achieve musical textures that would be impossible on a PA. I've only really discovered this huge advantage as I've got better at the CBA and now enjoying playing things like Spiegel im Spiegel (famous as used in the film 'Gravity') and lots of other music that would be out of bounds to a piano keyboard accordion.

Thats an interesting observation about the greater range of notes in a smaller space.
Indeed, my own CBA travel box has 34 treble notes in a space of a 26 note PA.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'musical textures' though

 

[saundersbp]

'musical textures' meaning:
- the PA/Stradella Bass tends to gravitate and be best at homophonic music (tune and accompaniment).
- the more compact CBA (esp. in mirrored freebass) allows the fingers to stretch more widely so it can do polyphonic (many voices of equal importance) music as well as homophonic music.
In other words the compact design of the CBA means it can be more versatile as the human hand can do so much more in terms of voice spacing. So much fantastic music is polyphonic (string quartets, choral music, bach, some forms of jazz, a lot of modern music etc. etc.) and its a shame not to at least have the possibility of exploring it and actually playing the notes written if you want to on your chosen keyboard instrument.

 

[Longshore]

'musical textures' meaning:
- the PA/Stradella Bass tends to gravitate and be best at homophonic music (tune and accompaniment).
- the more compact CBA (esp. in mirrored freebass) allows the fingers to stretch more widely so it can do polyphonic (many voices of equal importance) music as well as homophonic music.
In other words the compact design of the CBA means it can be more versatile as the human hand can do so much more in terms of voice spacing. So much fantastic music is polyphonic (string quartets, choral music, bach, some forms of jazz, a lot of modern music etc. etc.) and its a shame not to at least have the possibility of exploring it and actually playing the notes written if you want to on your chosen keyboard instrument.

Thank for the comprehensive reply to my query. I had an inkling that was what you meant but I wasn't sure.
Much appreciated.

 

[debra]

Personally I do not know anyone who started on CBA and after reaching a certain level of mastery decided to migrate towards PA.
Everyone I know who made a CBA to PA move did it after not being happy with an earlier PA to CBA move, so they are people who "return" to PA. There are people who are reasonably good at both CBA and PA, many of which are people who started with PA and moved to CBA without completely giving up PA. (You do not really "forget" how to play PA.)
As Saudersbp already hinted at: the only thing that's really easier on PA are white-key glissando. In the 120 or so recordings I have done in the past 4 years I have pulled out a PA once for a white-key glissando. (All other glissandos I just did on CBA, mostly chromatic glissando, and it sounds just as "right" as a white-key one would.)

 

[SteveBox]

Here is a detailed comparison of PA vs CBA keyboards. Each system has its pros and cons. For example, it says that PAs may be preferred by jazz musicians, because the larger key surfaces make it easier to play legato.

https://nydana.se/accordiontest.pdf

 

[Longshore]

Personally I do not know anyone who started on CBA and after reaching a certain level of mastery decided to migrate towards PA.
Everyone I know who made a CBA to PA move did it after not being happy with an earlier PA to CBA move, so they are people who "return" to PA. There are people who are reasonably good at both CBA and PA, many of which are people who started with PA and moved to CBA without completely giving up PA. (You do not really "forget" how to play PA.)
As Saudersbp already hinted at: the only thing that's really easier on PA are white-key glissando. In the 120 or so recordings I have done in the past 4 years I have pulled out a PA once for a white-key glissando. (All other glissandos I just did on CBA, mostly chromatic glissando, and it sounds just as "right" as a white-key one would.)

I've come to that conclusion Paul. I don't know of anybody going from CBA to PA.
I can't even really explain (even to myself) why I have the urge to play PA. Apart from the bass side it would like totally starting again - perhaps that's part of the attraction.

 

[Longshore]

Here is a detailed comparison of PA vs CBA keyboards. Each system has its pros and cons. For example, it says that PAs may be preferred by jazz musicians, because the larger key surfaces make it easier to play legato.

https://nydana.se/accordiontest.pdf

That's really comprehensive and make good and thoughtful reading.

 

[TomBR]

Thank goodness for that! With the document SteveBox linked we won't have to keep debating PA vs CBA, we can just refer to that page!

 

[Pipemajor]

One advantage I found with the PA is that, when making large jumps with the right hand, the raised black keys can help with landing on the correct note as you can just brush the tops of the black notes with your finger tips as you pass over them.

 

[TomBR]

One advantage I found with the PA is that, when making large jumps with the right hand, the raised black keys can help with landing on the correct note as you can just brush the tops of the black notes with your finger tips as you pass over them.

That would be jumps of more than two octaves, since you can easily span that on CBA.... ?

 

[Longshore]

One advantage I found with the PA is that, when making large jumps with the right hand, the raised black keys can help with landing on the correct note as you can just brush the tops of the black notes with your finger tips as you pass over them.

Interesting observation Pipemajor. I've seen CBA's with stipples on certain treble buttons to help navigate - but I personally don't like them.

 

[Longshore]

That would be jumps of more than two octaves, since you can easily span that on CBA.... ?

Another advantage of the CBA. Perhaps that is why nobody seems to leave CBA to take up PA.

 

[Pipemajor]

That would be jumps of more than two octaves, since you can easily span that on CBA.... ?

I agree you can span over two octaves but can you always find the correct button among the many other identical ones?
It is relatively easy jumping from the first row but if you start from say the third row to a different row over an octave away it is a different matter.
With the PA you know where each note lies because of the layout of the black and white keys.
(Ps. I play (badly) CBA)

 

[debra]

I agree you can span over two octaves but can you always find the correct button among the many other identical ones?
It is relatively easy jumping from the first row but if you start from say the third row to a different row over an octave away it is a different matter.
With the PA you know where each note lies because of the layout of the black and white keys.
(Ps. I play (badly) CBA)

It's called "muscle memory". The combination of your brain, arm and fingers learn through practice exactly where which button is... as long as you stay on the same accordion. In the process of learning it helps to have some "marked" or "textured" buttons, like C and F.

 

[jozz]

I agree the ultimate form is CBA, but I will never hit the limits of my PA sooner than that of my own playing.

I guess you could end up in a musical 'eco-system' where it makes more sense to play PA. Aside from solo-players, many 'accordionists' are in fact keys players with a side-gig. Thus playing PA.

Maybe you started out on CBA as a kid, then moved into other instruments, most likely keys, and then figured it be easier to use a PA for your side stuff. Might be easier to setup your brain/hands in between songs then.

 

[donn]

One advantage I found with the PA is that, when making large jumps with the right hand, the raised black keys can help with landing on the correct note as you can just brush the tops of the black notes with your finger tips as you pass over them.

That's a specific instance of the more general fact, that you can feel the notes. The dimples cut into some buttons aren't nearly as "conspicuous" to the hand.

I'm CBA myself, and have no thought of switching, but ... either we're on to something here the world hasn't discovered yet, or we're exaggerating the virtues of a system that has been around for generations and is still mostly just a traditional choice.