Do new accordions improve with playing?

[debra]

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Interesting - my L reed does sound different than the M for the same note, but I supposed it was because the L reed was in fact different, because its the kind of reed that also works well an octave lower. At any rate, it doesnt sound like youre claiming any acoustic property for the material itself. It could be acrylic or something and the chamber size effect would be the same - and the chamber size doesnt change after being played for as long as you want, I suppose.
...

That L and M reed sounding differently are indeed the exact same type of reed, the same size, the same quality, and if you were to exchange them the difference would still be the same.
Indeed it is at least mostly the chamber shape and sound that determines the sound, although the material could have some minor effect as well.
I have seen some eastern european or chinese accordions with plastic reed blocks (could be acrylic or something else, but not wood in any case) and they did not sound any worse than similar quality accordions with wooden reed blocks. And because these reed blocks can be molded or cast in one go they are a lot cheaper to produce than a wooden reed block. And the plastic reed blocks may be less likely to warp (because of temperature and moisture affecting wood) and cause air leaks. Yes that happens as I have shown before with reed blocks of a Hohner Gola...
Size and shape of the reeds is still the main factor determining the sound, but another important factor is the presence of the valves. As notes go higher at some point (around C6) they no longer have valves fitted and you can hear the change in sound as you transition from the reeds with valves to the reeds without valves. (The change is mainly caused by the hissing of the air being wasted to the reed that plays in the opposite bellows direction.)
So many little things determine the final sound an accordion produces... the reeds themselves are just the start.

 

[donn]

I was about to take my accordion apart to see what I could see about that, but first I gave the reeds one last listen just to verify that they sound different - and I guess they don't so much. The L reed note comes out farther away from me, is the main difference.

 

[debra]

I was about to take my accordion apart to see what I could see about that, but first I gave the reeds one last listen just to verify that they sound different - and I guess they dont so much. The L reed note comes out farther away from me, is the main difference.

It depends on the accordion. On many Italian accordions like Bugari and Pigini, with cassotto, the L reeds have a more mellow sound than the M reeds. On my Russian bayan it is the same. But on a Hohner Morino and Gola the M reeds give a more mellow sound than the L reeds. Go figure...

 

[Eddy Yates]

One of the reasons I’m digging into this a bit is that I had asked a question about the beautiful wood finishes on accordions and whether they sound different than a celluloid covered one.
Also, I’m assuming that accordion makers are no more or less honest than piano makers. For example, Steinway are far and away the best marketers of pianos, but they do not make the best pianos, even though they say that. In fact, any new piano will need thousands of dollars more of regulation before they achieve their zenith. They just don’t come out of the factory as regulated as they should be. Maybe accordions are different. In which case, hurray for us!
I’m also sticking with the idea that playing improves the sound of a new accordion. It has nothing to do with the seasoning of the wood and everything to do with music resonating in the instrument for hours and hours.

 

[jozz]

i love the idea of the instrument "ripening" on you like fine wine

but in the end it is such a subjective matter and there are lots of other factors when it comes to sound perception

it's a bit like people preferring vinyl over CD quality

 

[debra]

One of the reasons I’m digging into this a bit is that I had asked a question about the beautiful wood finishes on accordions and whether they sound different than a celluloid covered one.
...

Manufacturers claim that they use better wood for the all wood instruments (because there is no celluloid that helps to keep everything together) and that you can hear a difference in sound. But this is likely another case where you need to hear two otherwise identical instruments side by side (one with celluloid and one with pure wood) in order to notice a difference.

The sound resonating for hours and hours inside the instrument is more likely needed to find out where it resonates that you dont want so you can stop that. There are many mechanical parts that potentially can resonate with one of the notes, causing an unwanted effect. Think of the grille and the register mechanism as the most likely culprits.

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

I don't know if new accordions improve with playing though some of the old ones I have appear to be far superior to any new ones I have tried. Not necessarily a good example or wide ranging survey BUT, I do notice that my Concertina improves with playing!

These days I only drag out the Concertina when our dance band plays a gig, or there is a music session or festival happening. If the instrument has not been played for a week or two the sound is not as good prior to a workout than after. It takes several hours of strong playing for it to arrive in top form. How to explain this I do not know because this concertina is 120 years old , completely original except for a new bellows. One professional concertina player who's instrument is from the same ear and maker , claims exactly the same thing happens with his Concertina when he has been off work for a week or more . These are not shabby antiques or 'collector's models' but real work horses with a high sound output... they appear to 'like' being played.

 

[Eddy Yates]

Right. I also play a lot of MIDI instruments. We call them “slabs” and I think I’ve managed to make music with them, but in no way do I think they are alive as are accordions. Maybe these boxes are that way because of faults, but they breathe, and the laws of physics say they resonate. Why we like one over another is pretty much a mystery, I’d say.

 

[Granitz]

This is a very interesting discussion and I thoroughly enjoy reading the posts. Eddy Yates, your observation regarding new Steinway pianos and their need for additional prep is spot-on to what my piano tuning and rebuilding customers have been saying for years. However, their fundamental design allows numerous errors and discrepancies in the action, voicing, etc...to be masked to a degree. But after the hours and hours of post-factory prep work is done they are tough instruments to beat and live up to their name recognition and reputation. We often comment in our restoration that "just because the factory did it a certain way doesn't mean that it's done right."

As to accordions improving, I can tell you first hand and without doubt that the new blocks and new reeds in my 1960's Pan have definitely matured and it keeps improving in tone, depth, volume, and response (granted, I got it up and running only a few months ago.) Furthermore, and IMHO, an accordion can only play to the level of it's last prep...a seemingly never-ending process.

One huge advantage in our piano restoration shop (where we install new soundboards, new keyboards, etc...and make new keys for the existing keyframe) is that we have a "pounder machine," which plays triple-octave scales all night long and each key gets played over 12,000 times per 8-hour session. I wish there was a similar device for breaking in accordion rebuilds. {}

 

[Dingo40]

I believe research (using independent, double-blind studies) clearly shows the more one plays one’s accordion, the more it improves<EMOJI seq="1f601">?</EMOJI>!

 

[debra]

...
As to accordions improving, I can tell you first hand and without doubt that the new blocks and new reeds in my 1960s Pan have definitely matured and it keeps improving in tone, depth, volume, and response (granted, I got it up and running only a few months ago.) ...

What definitely changes in the first weeks/months of a brand new accordion coming straight from the factory is that the wax continues to harden a little and this does change the sound as more of the vibration is transferred from reed to block. I doubt the blocks themselves mature but the sound transfer from reeds to blocks does improve. This also means the volume increases. The response may be influence by the reeds bending under the air pressure but I believe that this is negligible at least for the first several years. Unfortunately the wax hardening may also imply that the instrument goes slightly out of tune.
A good dealer of new accordions will ask customers to come back after one year for a free checkup and tuning. Too many people never have any maintenance done to their accordions for many years and just accept that an accordion is always a bit out of tune...

 

[Corsaire]

A good dealer of new accordions will ask customers to come back after one year for a free checkup and tuning. Too many people never have any maintenance done to their accordions for many years and just accept that an accordion is always a bit out of tune...

Not all of us are knowledgeable about the inner workings so it does make sense to get an accordion checked out once in a while. It could save an expensive repair later.

 

[debra]

...
Not all of us are knowledgeable about the inner workings so it does make sense to get an accordion checked out once in a while. It could save an expensive repair later.

I have learned that people do not mind a relatively small expense on a more or less regular basis but hate a large expense all at once. So that fits what you say. But it also explains why people do not want to spend a lot of money on a (new or lightly used) accordion.
A good accordion may cost the same as 10 years of expenses like lessons or orchestra membership, travel (to lessons or rehearsals) and maybe also drinks (that go with rehearsals). People happily spend the frequent small amount but consider a new accordion to be too expensive. It is the shock of seeing the whole amount at once that makes the cost of the instrument itself appear larger than the cost of using it for 10 years.

 

[donn]

What definitely changes in the first weeks/months of a brand new accordion coming straight from the factory is that the wax continues to harden a little and this does change the sound as more of the vibration is transferred from reed to block. I doubt the blocks themselves mature but the sound transfer from reeds to blocks does improve. This also means the volume increases. The response may be influence by the reeds bending under the air pressure but I believe that this is negligible at least for the first several years.

I would hope you would take the effects on the reeds fairly seriously, since theyre really entirely responsible for tone generation.

The contribution of the vibrating reed blocks to sound volume doesnt seem likely to amount to much, but I expect that if the wax is so flexible that the reed plates are able to move, that might inhibit the vibration of the reed. (It sure would if the reed oscillates under its own power, like a tuning fork, while generating sound. If its only part of an air pressure system, like a woodwind reed, then it probably doesnt matter so much. Should be easy to make an empirical test.)

 

[debra]

...
The contribution of the vibrating reed blocks to sound volume doesnt seem likely to amount to much, but I expect that if the wax is so flexible that the reed plates are able to move, that might inhibit the vibration of the reed. (It sure would if the reed oscillates under its own power, like a tuning fork, while generating sound. If its only part of an air pressure system, like a woodwind reed, then it probably doesnt matter so much. Should be easy to make an empirical test.)

What I learned in the accordion repair course is that when you rewax reeds/reed blocks (so removing all old wax and putting reed plates back on using new wax) you need to wait a few weeks before doing the final tuning because the tuning of the reeds will still change while the wax is hardening. Of course I have not run an experiment to verify this. I have simply waited for three weeks between waxing and tuning.

 

[wout]

Living in the city of guitar makers (granada), I would guess yes. The reason why is what has been said before, the wood needs to settle. I even know a guitar builder who leaves his fresh built guitars with a high quality speaker inside for a week or two. I dont know if that makes any sense but they seem to agree that the wood resonance changes by being played.

 

[donn]

Guitar makers can make sense - and nonsense. I've seen a video online, where someone at Fender I think it was, goes over the virtues of different hardwoods - for solid slab bodies of an electric guitar. He smacks a slab of this wood and that with a mallet or something, and offers some remarks about the tonal character. Maple, ash, etc.

I have to assume he knows better, but for me it doesn't make any difference - dishonest and stupid add up about equal.

An electric guitar doesn't depend on its body to do anything but hold the pickup still. I play a hollow body electric bass, one that has enough of a legit soundboard that you can actually hear me playing a few feet away without amplification, but through the magnetic pickups the effect on tone is small if any - not enough to care what kind of wood. Then as for the stupid demo: if a block of wood has a musical resonance, that would be the worst possible thing, wouldn't it? You'd have a few strong notes that would sing out because they match the resonant frequencies. But electric guitar players eat this stuff up, perhaps validating the concerns about long term impairment due to underage use of drugs.

 

[wout]

I got curious and found this article: https://spinditty.com/instruments-gear/Do-Tonewoods-Matter-for-Electric-Guitar

The builders here mainly focus on flamenco guitars and its very interesting. Theres alot of difference in sound between guitars and a very clear difference between the snappy sound of a flamenco guitar vs classic. There is unfortunately not much info i can find on how the wood ages when being played.

 

[donn]

Right, there are sure people who think they can hear the difference from ... you name it.

I play tuba. I've seen testimonials from tuba players who think they can tell the difference when their tuba mouthpiece is rotated in the receiver; when the tuba has a different finish (lacquer, silver, etc.); when weights are attached to the valve caps under the pistons; when a sort of bridge is installed on the receiver to create an extra contact with the mouthpiece ... You can "invent" any superficial modification of a tuba or other brass instrument, and people will believe that they can hear a difference. It doesn't however seem that manufacturers prey on this kind of mental frailty, as much as they do in the electric guitar world, I guess because it's easy to make an electric guitar from parts (assuming the parts include a neck) so there's a big custom shop industry in exotic guitar designs. Naturally these designs must have some reputation for tonal quality, and maple vs. ash is an easy one.

There's another aspect to this, that affects brass players and guitar players - and accordion players - the sound you hear, and perhaps feel, isn't what's heard out front. The guy in that article who feels a difference with the guitar laying on a table, is reporting that kind of thing. The type of brass used in a trombone bell may have a very slight effect on the sound out front - and likely a much greater effect on the sound that comes back to the player behind the bell. Etc.

 

[wout]

Thats a very valid point. Ive been watching blind tests between instruments as well, seems sound in the upper level of instruments is hard to tell. The feeling you get is a whole other matter. I wonder the same with for example a super vi m series. For me personally it sounds extremely nice but so do other instruments. On a blind test i probably wouldnt be able to tell. But the feeling i dont know ive never played one. That and sentiment of the player. But is it worth 10.000 euros? While you can get a new instrument for half the price with a not notable sound difference i dont know.