Fast keyboard?

[Neoscan]

that is helpful.. also helpful is finding out you own 14 accordions total..
up until now it kind of seemed like you had only two points
of reference to compare..

the keyboard in question has lucite keytops, so it is modern
era construction, making gunk and wear less likely culprits..
the keys do not show any obvious warpage.. visual appearance
seems straight and level, so checking between the keys with a
feeler gauge should quickly rule out key to key friction/drag

it is a smaller keyboard and new enough that (assuming a pivot rod)
should not be difficult to pull that rod.. personally i bungee cord around
the section so the keys stay in place when sprung.. have you made
a chart noting which keys seem to be having a problem ?

thorough examination should reveal the necessary clues

Thanks. It’s not particular keys. Just that overall, the keyboard isn’t as light/responsive/fast or whatever the correct terminology is. I am mainly complaining it to a Pigini as that’s the instrument I’m most accustomed to playing.

Yeah, keys flying out would be a nightmare- I’ll make sure to use something like a cord to keep them for doing that.

It could well be that is just the way it is as they’re all a bit different bur I’d like it to be slightly more responsive to fast triplets etc and overall have a lighter feel to it.

 

[JKJ]

Just as a matter of interest Neo have you checked the weight required to depress the key

No, I haven’t done this- how would I go about checking?

The weight method is cheap and easy:
I cut a piece of eraser to clear the sides of the key and stacked weights on top, measured the weight with an inexpensive gram scale.
Add weight until the key just begins to move and stays down when encouraged with an extremely light touch from a finger.


This accordion, a Hohner Verdi III, needed 3.56g to depress a key. I checked several for consistency.
My second PA accordion needed only 1.74g. (A Suzuki Pro-37 Melodica was 1.77g.) I used stacked coins as weights.

As an accordion beginner I can’t tell that one is any better than the other.

I’d never checked my piano so I thought that might be interesting. It was 3.16g at middle C, a tiny bit lighter and heavier on the high and low ends. The keys on my 7’ Baldwin grand were actually “lighter” than the Hohner accordion, even with driving the complex piano action. Of course, the simple static weight test doesn’t consider the dynamic nature of the action - an all-important consideration for a pianist.



The scales I use are inexpensive (from Amazon) and surprising useful around the home and shop: AWS (American Weight Scales). I keep these tiny scales in 0.01 and 0.1 gram resolution.



I’m sure accordion keys can be lightened one way or other, but personally my preference would be to strengthen the fingers. Regardless of the key weight of a specific keyboard instrument, the well-known exercises in the Hanon’s “The Virtuoso Pianist” book are probably the best for almost any keyboard instrument, not only to build finger strength but for flexibility and ultimately, speed.

JKJ

 

[isorry123]

The weight method is cheap and easy:
I cut a piece of eraser to clear the sides of the key and stacked weights on top, measured the weight with an inexpensive gram scale.
Add weight until the key just begins to move and stays down when encouraged with an extremely light touch from a finger.


This accordion, a Hohner Verdi III, needed 3.56g to depress a key. I checked several for consistency.
My second PA accordion needed only 1.74g. (A Suzuki Pro-37 Melodica was 1.77g.) I used stacked coins as weights.

As an accordion beginner I can’t tell that one is any better than the other.

I’d never checked my piano so I thought that might be interesting. It was 3.16g at middle C, a tiny bit lighter and heavier on the high and low ends. The keys on my 7’ Baldwin grand were actually “lighter” than the Hohner accordion, even with driving the complex piano action. Of course, the simple static weight test doesn’t consider the dynamic nature of the action - an all-important consideration for a pianist.



The scales I use are inexpensive (from Amazon) and surprising useful around the home and shop: AWS (American Weight Scales). I keep these tiny scales in 0.01 and 0.1 gram resolution.



I’m sure accordion keys can be lightened one way or other, but personally my preference would be to strengthen the fingers. Regardless of the key weight of a specific keyboard instrument, the well-known exercises in the Hanon’s “The Virtuoso Pianist” book are probably the best for almost any keyboard instrument, not only to build finger strength but for flexibility and ultimately, speed.

JKJ

This is an interesting way to figure out depress weight haha

 

[Frank Barocco]

Hi Neo
Sorry for departing from your original intent.
Seems I was misguided by the terms "fast" and "light" which I linked to the keyboard itself rather than making a link to the sound. "Response" was the keyword.
Though I still believe there are "faster" keyboards than others (impacted by key geometry, key travel, spring forces, etc.) there is of course also a big difference in the fastness from pressing a key (i.e. opening the pallet) to a sound response - on a synth that param is called attack. I'm very sure changing anything on the keyboard itself will NOT impact the responsiveness/attack. This is a matter of reeds (their geometry, gaps between reed itself and the reed-block and valves). As you mentioned your new instrument comes with a Mano reeds (which the Pigini eventually features as well) I understand you're disappointed to notice a more or less remarkable difference. Again: Paul de Bra is way more into the details than I am, but from my limited background the reed response is mainly defined by the adjustment of the gaps between reed and reed-block. Fine-tuning this can be done but that's quite a work-package and needs a very experienced tuner/tech who exactly understands your desire and knows what he does.
Hopefully you don't have to go this path but have the option to return / trade-in your instrument against a "faster" one.

Yes and as Paul de Bra explained elsewhere, voicing reeds in a way that makes them respond fast even under low pressure also has trade-offs: volume output will be lower and there is a chance of reed choking when playing with force. Good to keep that in mind if loud reeds are desired.

 

[Neoscan]

Yes and as Paul de Bra explained elsewhere, voicing reeds in a way that makes them respond fast even under low pressure also has trade-offs: volume output will be lower and there is a chance of reed choking when playing with force. Good to keep that in mind if loud reeds are desired.

Yeah, the reeds are beautiful sounding and very responsive but yes, a mano reeds can have a couple of trades offs depending on your playing style. These have been fine so far.

 

[oldbayan]

I think a "fast" keyboard is not about having "soft" keys! It's rather the opposite. If the springs under the keys are soft, the keys take more time to move back to rest and this affects the playing speed. Each instrument has its playability features, perhaps you only need to adapt your playing to your new instrument.

 

[Neoscan]

I think a "fast" keyboard is not about having "soft" keys! It's rather the opposite. If the springs under the keys are soft, the keys take more time to move back to rest and this affects the playing speed. Each instrument has its playability features, perhaps you only need to adapt your playing to your new instrument.

This may be true but I really like the keyboard response to be similar to my other main instrument. Maybe it’s not possible

 

[oldbayan]

This may be true but I really like the keyboard response to be similar to my other main instrument. Maybe it’s not possible

Each accordion has a personality Key travel, spring tension, reed responsiveness, bellows action, there are lots of parameters.

 

[John M]

I could be wrong. but I believe the best fastest keyboard is the one Hammond had on their consoles -- B3, C-3, A100, RT3, D100, etc. The response was lightening fast with a great "soft" touch. I think the secret was (and physically impossible to achieve on an accordion) was that their key measured 12" from the front to the back (under the console) where the cantilever spring was. The leaf spring was calibrated to give a nice soft touch with a return that was very quick. The very early consoles (starting in 1935) had a spring with a screw where you could adjust the tension of each key. Later, they went to the fixed leaf spring that lasted until the last production models of their tonewheel organs in 1975.

 

[Ventura]

AND they were waterfall keys.. nice for a slide..

maybe you could retrofit some 50's era keys onto am EVO ?

 

[John M]

. . .AND they were waterfall keys.. nice for a slide. . .

I think all the classic Hammonds always had waterfall keys, even the Model A that came out in 1935. The touch was always good, but something about the edges of the keys that made a sharp 90 Deg corner made them a little more difficult to do a glissando. Hammond changed the key shape (rounding the corners?) a little (I think starting in the 40's) that made them super easy to do those nice palm slides.