Fr4 keyboard velocity?

[Tom]

So, I've hooked up my fr4 to my laptop, with midi out to USB in. I can select it in Reaper, and control a VST that I have loaded.

The keyboard sensitivity (velocity) is too slow. That is to say, if I push fast, I get notes, no problem. But if I push soft, like I generally play, it's too soft, I get no sound. I don't see a way to adjust this on the fr4. I can adjust the "bellows curve" parameters but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Any advice?

 

[Ventura]

there is a setting to turn the bellows off so the Kb is like an organ
(just note on note off)
to test
and extended, the velocity/volume is then preset to a specific value
and can be changed on some MIDI kbds depending on what the
sound engine needs

the values for velocity or expression parameters are i think 1 through 124 or some such
and a note could be silent if the expression is sending 1 even if volume is sending higher values
expression and volume are two separate parameters but both affect the force of the sounded note
i think expression is controller 11, dunno what offhand Volume controller is..
all would be in the (standard) MIDI spec, for which there used to be available
downloads from the MIDI consortium about all the basic stuff and standards

there used to be a MIDI tool that would just show the MIDI data stream on your
computer screen (for testing) maybe you can find something similar..
the one i have is a DOS program

the density of the data shouldn't be a factor here as then at least some notes would play

 

[Chris Laarman]

So, I've hooked up my fr4 to my laptop, with midi out to USB in. I can select it in Reaper, and control a VST that I have loaded.

The keyboard sensitivity (velocity) is too slow. That is to say, if I push fast, I get notes, no problem. But if I push soft, like I generally play, it's too soft, I get no sound. I don't see a way to adjust this on the fr4. I can adjust the "bellows curve" parameters but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Any advice?

In my view, you're comparing MIDI "apples" with audio "oranges".

I mean: you want a given VST to respond like your FR-4. That would be a coincidence... My suggestion (not at all discounting Ventura's) would be: either to find a sound (setting, preset, program, whatever name be used) with a similar velocity curve and raise the volume ("make distant whispers audible") or find a sound that has the desired level at whatever the velocity needed ("adjust nearby shouts or whispers to speech level").
To my knowledge, true accordions don't have much of a velocity curve, hence the use of registers. The V-Accordions may differ from true ones in this respect, and models may be configurable.

By the way, that VST wouldn't happen to have a virtual Gain control beside its Output control (and Reaper's master output control, your computers output control and maybe the controls of an amplifier)?
('Gain" would be virtual, as it's juggling MIDI messages rather than adjusting signal levels.)

 

[Airy]

... there used to be a MIDI tool that would just show the MIDI data stream on your
computer screen (for testing) maybe you can find something similar..

Exactly that suggestion I wanted to make as well.

When I hook up external MIDI keyboards to my computer I first check with a MIDI-monitoring tool, what parameter range (eg velocity) is sent by "normal" usage. Technically / idealy the range for most parameters goes from 0 to 127 but in "normal" use it mostly doesn't. Like one keyboard I have sends note-on velocities from 10 to 50 or max 70 when I hit it very hard. Knowing "your" range you can figuere out a kind of multiplier to exalerate the dynamic of that particular keyboard (here: your FR4). If your VST intrument doesn't have an option to dial in that multiplier (usually called "dynamics curve"), maybe Reaper has. And if both don't have, there is special software to route in between your Accordion and Reaper which can manipulate all kinds of MIDI parameters.

Note that the MIDI parameter "volume" (CC7) is not meant to make the individual notes louder or quieter. "Volume" is the overall loudness level of the intrument in comparison to other intruments. Individual notes are controlled by a parameter called "on velocity" (means: how hard you pushed the individual key) and is sent with / attached to every single note.

Reaper is on Windows, right? Sorry. I'm on Mac. Otherwise I would have mentioned the tools I'm using.

PS to @Tom : Sorry that I tried to explain "volume" and "velocity". I see from your original post, that you already know and use the correct terms.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the advice people! Typical Windows h*ll situation.. Luckily I've been doing this for a million years. Look for vst, make account, download, test, restart reaper, check vst location, try another one, decipher settings, blah, bah, blah,. Randomly get something to work for no apparent reason, repeat until crazed.

Will let you lnow when I find something I like....

 

[Airy]

@Tom Well, if you can take the pain..., here are some free Windows' MIDI monitoring tools:

• Pocket MIDI
  
  

  Get Pocket MIDI from the Microsoft Store

  Pocket MIDI is a simple and intuitive MIDI monitoring tool. It's possible to monitor MIDI data from MIDI instrument in real time connecting MIDI instrument to your computer. And it's possible to operate MIDI instrument MIDI message output from Pocket MIDI. Please use it as a development/testing...

  apps.microsoft.com

• Midi View
  

  MIDIView - Free MIDI Monitor tool for Win & Mac

  MidiView is a simple MIDI Monitor app to that shows bi-directional MIDI packages that flows through your machine. Setting up the app is easy. Just plug in your MIDI device and see what is going on between your software and device.

  hautetechnique.com

 

[Tom]

Thanks Airy! I'll look into those when I need more pain! It would be nice to have a whole bunch of instruments to pick from, like the Native Instruments/Kontakt, but I couldn't get them to work with the Fr4.

Actually the best success I had was the Numa Player. It's got a couple accordions, some pianos and synth pads. At least it works!

 

[Airy]

It would be nice to have a whole bunch of instruments to pick from, like the Native Instruments/Kontakt, but I couldn't get them to work with the Fr4.

Ok, I have NI Kontakt 5, will look into it tomorrow. I can only try with the FR1x, so if you want to be sure it would work the same with your FR4 you could record a MIDI file (I bet Reaper can do this) and send me a PM how to get/download the file.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Airy! Let's see if it works with the fr1 first.... Let me know!

 

[Ventura]

why use a computer

just try using an old Casio keyboard with speakers and MIDI in
or
pick up a used Sound Canvas for $100 or so

 

[Tom]

why use a computer

just try using an old Casio keyboard with speakers and MIDI in
or
pick up a used Sound Canvas for $100 or so

Looking for a direct recording option. Plus I have a computer which "should" handle the midi in with all those exciting VSTs out there. I've just never figured out all the details.

 

[JerryPH]

Hey Tom, I was looking through my website this morning and found *something* that may help. Back in 2016 I ran in to the issue of the 8X screwing around with the volume of my arranger, and I definitely did NOT like that at all. Here is what I found that works on my 8x:

Challenge: To NOT have the 8X screw around with any of the volume settings on the Ketron X4, just accept the chord changes and nothing else.
Solution: In the FR-8X MENU 16.4 – set “Accordion” to OFF
Solution 2: I have set ALL PARTS to OFF to prevent other sections of the V-accordion from sending volume information to the BK-7m.

Now, I am 100% sure that your menu system and mine are completely different, but look through your manual for something called "Expression MIDI TX" or similar and turn that off.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Jerry, I'll check that out... It does seem that some sort of code or value is off. When I was playing around with the soft arrangers I found the whole midi situation fragile and fraught with danger for the uninitiated.

 

[Ventura]

and then just when you get it set ok, you push a shift on the Roland and
it sends a new ton of info to whatever is listening to MIDI data which
is why i had to put a Micro midi thing in line to block the Volume completely
to the Drawbars in my rack

 

[Airy]

@Tom:
Here are the findings regarding my FR1x connected to NI Kontakt Sampler Software:

The FR1x can send 2 different Controller-Types which may result in sound volume, depending on the virtual instrument:

• Note on velocity
• Two controllers (CC11 + CC 43) which together define the "expression", read "bellows pressure". They are sort of added up which allows to cover a bigger range / finer steps compared to using just one controller.
  They are not related to or influenced by the parameter of the bellows dynamic of the FR1x.

When playing the internal sounds of the FR1x both controllers used for different purposes.
Each of these can be enabled / disabled in the system config of the FR1x.

• Note on velocity can be set to a dynamic value (how hard you press the buttons) or a fixed value of your choice.
  When the FR1x plays internal accordion sounds it doesn't use the velocity to define the volume, it only uses bellows pressure. The velocity is (only?) used for the drums-layer (left hand). And you need quite some force to bring this parameter into higher values. Therefore my suggestion is to configure this to a fixed value (e.g. 100), this avoids the problem of playing with low volume on the computer.
  
  
• For the expression you can configure whether both CCs are used or only CC11. Although using both controllers may give better results (higher resolution to reflect even miniscule bellows pressure changes), it usually is not supported by Kontakt instruments. So my suggestion is to use only CC11.
  You have to enable / disable these CCs for each sound layer separately (accordion, bass, chords, orchstra, organs, etc). There is also one setting to activate them all but I suggest not to do so to save bandwith in the MIDI signal stream.

Here are the relevant parameters in FR1x nomenclature and my suggested values:

• trb = Treble TX/RX channel = 1
• bFr = Bass TX/RX channel = 2
• Chd = Chord TX/RX channel = 3
• PCh = Program Change TX = Off
• bEA = Bellows Expression TX All = Off
• bE1 = Bellows Expression TX Treble = On
• bE2 = Bellows Expression TX Bass / Chord = On
• bE3 to bE6 = Bellows Expression other instruments = Off
• vEL = Velocity Transmit = 100
• brE = bellows TX resolution = 2

On the computer:
To check whether the computer / software receives the correct parameters while playing the accordion you should use some "MIDI monitoring" software. In the case of the sample-player software NI Kontakt such a monitoring tool is already on board (Enable the "KSP" script viewer. Find an empty script slot and import the factory script "Utilities / MIDI Monitor").

How you make the software instrument react to your bellows movement / pressure will depend on the particular software. In case of NI Kontakt you can for example right-click on the instrument's volume slider to activate "MIDI learn" and then shortly move the bellows. Kontakt will analyse the MID channel and controller type of the bellows and from now on automatically adjust the output volume accordingly.
But this is not the recommended way because the volume would jump from low to high pretty drastically. Better you find an instrument which allows to adjust the parameter "expression" and then couple that slider to your MIDI controller value (e.g. the accordion sample library from Ilya Efimov offers this possibilty - and sounds great btw). Within Kontakt you can also write your own little KSP scripts (or get ready made ones from the internet) which then transform any given controller values into the desired ones. This would even allow to adjust / finetune the bellows dynamic to the particular instrument.

 

[Airy]

Here are the findings regarding my FR1x connected to NI Kontakt Sampler Software:
....

Addendum

Note that my goal was to reproduce accordion-ishy sounds in my software. Therefore I put the focus on the bellows controlling the volume and sound of the virtual intrument. This may work as well for strings and other instruments which can change the expression while holding the note(s).

If you'd rather want to play a percussive-melodic instrument like pianos, mallets, plucked strings etc, you should disable the bellows control and instead activate the dynamic note on velocity.

 

[Tom]

@Tom:
Here are the findings regarding my FR1x connected to NI Kontakt Sampler Software:

The FR1x can send 2 different Controller-Types which may result in sound volume, depending on the virtual instrument:

• Note on velocity
• Two controllers (CC11 + CC 43) which together define the "expression", read "bellows pressure". They are sort of added up which allows to cover a bigger range / finer steps compared to using just one controller.
  They are not related to or influenced by the parameter of the bellows dynamic of the FR1x.

When playing the internal sounds of the FR1x both controllers used for different purposes.
Each of these can be enabled / disabled in the system config of the FR1x.

• Note on velocity can be set to a dynamic value (how hard you press the buttons) or a fixed value of your choice.
  When the FR1x plays internal accordion sounds it doesn't use the velocity to define the volume, it only uses bellows pressure. The velocity is (only?) used for the drums-layer (left hand). And you need quite some force to bring this parameter into higher values. Therefore my suggestion is to configure this to a fixed value (e.g. 100), this avoids the problem of playing with low volume on the computer.
  
  
• For the expression you can configure whether both CCs are used or only CC11. Although using both controllers may give better results (higher resolution to reflect even miniscule bellows pressure changes), it usually is not supported by Kontakt instruments. So my suggestion is to use only CC11.
  You have to enable / disable these CCs for each sound layer separately (accordion, bass, chords, orchstra, organs, etc). There is also one setting to activate them all but I suggest not to do so to save bandwith in the MIDI signal stream.

Here are the relevant parameters in FR1x nomenclature and my suggested values:

• trb = Treble TX/RX channel = 1
• bFr = Bass TX/RX channel = 2
• Chd = Chord TX/RX channel = 3
• PCh = Program Change TX = Off
• bEA = Bellows Expression TX All = Off
• bE1 = Bellows Expression TX Treble = On
• bE2 = Bellows Expression TX Bass / Chord = On
• bE3 to bE6 = Bellows Expression other instruments = Off
• vEL = Velocity Transmit = 100
• brE = bellows TX resolution = 2

On the computer:
To check whether the computer / software receives the correct parameters while playing the accordion you should use some "MIDI monitoring" software. In the case of the sample-player software NI Kontakt such a monitoring tool is already on board (Enable the "KSP" script viewer. Find an empty script slot and import the factory script "Utilities / MIDI Monitor").

How you make the software instrument react to your bellows movement / pressure will depend on the particular software. In case of NI Kontakt you can for example right-click on the instrument's volume slider to activate "MIDI learn" and then shortly move the bellows. Kontakt will analyse the MID channel and controller type of the bellows and from now on automatically adjust the output volume accordingly.
But this is not the recommended way because the volume would jump from low to high pretty drastically. Better you find an instrument which allows to adjust the parameter "expression" and then couple that slider to your MIDI controller value (e.g. the accordion sample library from Ilya Efimov offers this possibilty - and sounds great btw). Within Kontakt you can also write your own little KSP scripts (or get ready made ones from the internet) which then transform any given controller values into the desired ones. This would even allow to adjust / finetune the bellows dynamic to the particular instrument.

Wow, thanks so much for this explanation Airy! You have clearly done your homework on this and it's way over my head!!!! I'll see if I can understand it.....

 

[Piotr]

Tom In Roland Editor you can find Velocity parameter in midi section for each Register

 

[Tom]

Tom In Roland Editor you can find Velocity parameter in midi section for each Register

Thanks Piotr!

 

[Keymn]

Page 48 of the reference manual explains velocity. Velocity default is “on”. You can set it to a numerical value 1-127.