Free Bass vs Converter Accordions

[Waldo]

Howdy all,
I'm interested in the members opinions/experiences/knowledge of Free Bass accordions vs Converter accordions.

1) Preference of one over the other.

2)With respect to converters, which left hand layout do you play and why?

2a) How does one identify the different left hand layouts? When the seller hasn't a clue?

3) Anything not obvious, good and bad.

Press on...
Waldo

 

[debra]

Let's first assume that with "free bass versus convertor" you mean MIII with 3 extra rows (but still also Stradella bass, not just an accordion with only free bass).
1) I prefer the convertor: reaching for the 3 extra rows is a bit hard.
2) C-system, which was standard on PA before I went to CBA.
2a) Ask whether high notes are at the top or bottom in the playing orientation: that separates Russian (low at bottom) from European (low at top); ask where the marked notes (dimples) are to identify C versus B system.
3) When the seller has no clue, make d@mn sure you know about the real origin of the accordion, who owned it, who played it. Although in many cases people may be selling an accordion that belonged to a deceased family member, some may try to sell a stolen instrument and they will also say they are selling it because of a deceased family member...

 

[Geronimo]

3) When the seller has no clue, make d@mn sure you know about the real origin of the accordion, who owned it, who played it. Although in many cases people may be selling an accordion that belonged to a deceased family member, some may try to sell a stolen instrument and they will also say they are selling it because of a deceased family member...

It just occured to me: wouldnt they also have a whole lot of score sheets to sell? Not a given for Stradella bass players, and I have to admit knowing at least one person with a Morino VIM because he likes its bass sound better (and not playing the free bass at all), but a converter instrument should rather likely collect its amount of scores over its lifetime.

 

[Geronimo]

Lets first assume that with free bass versus convertor you mean MIII with 3 extra rows (but still also Stradella bass, not just an accordion with only free bass).
1) I prefer the convertor: reaching for the 3 extra rows is a bit hard.

I lack the comparison. What is your respective take on anchoring an organ point in the MII bass (sometimes having to move to an equivalent button when the reach would become too ugly) while playing a left-hand organ part on the MIII? I find that one of the trickier things to do but am lacking the imagination to guess whether a convertor would make this easier or harder.

 

[JerryPH]

I figure that if a lanky 5"-5" tall, 110lb, 13-year old had no issues reaching over on a MIII system on a huge Morino VIN, then it is a matter of simple preference and not so much physical restriction, but a simple matter of practice and getting used to it.

That said, because I started with the MIII C-system, it is going to be my obvious preference. One thing that I noticed when I was at the conservatory, was that there was a restriction for the people playing converter accordions... they had to take the time to physically change registers to change "systems" where all I did was raise my hand higher and I was in "free bass land" (lol). Not often, but in some songs, this was a big advantage. Where they had to change registers, causing delays in the music, I did not have to and the music flowed without interruption.

Also, it may be sincerely silly to say, but I love the look of all those buttons. I cannot tell you how many times I had people stop and stare at the left hand side of my accordion when I was playing, because of "wow, look at all those bass buttons!!!". That coolness factor cannot be beat... lol

It wasn't until I got the Roland that I had my first real taste of a converter system, and the convenience of having the buttons lower was felt, but even at that, I absolutely hated it because the buttons were so far apart (nothing to do with converter vs MIII), it caused my fingers to cramp and hurt, but the counter advantage to this system was the ability of having 4 rows of free bass became evident. Now, did I ever use that 4th row... no, not ever in a playing situation, but then again, I never was taught or practiced with it, so there was no reason to use it. Yes, it is an advantage, however, again, only in very rare circumstances.

In the end, the advantages of either system outweigh the other side and I think that if one is keeping careful score, the outcome is an exact tie.

For me, if someone said "here is a million dollars, order the accordion of your dreams", it would *not* be a converter system, but it would be the traditional MIII system with the deepest notes at the top, matching the format of any right-side keyboard. Obviously, there is no logical reason for this, it is all entirely personal preference.

More importantly, if this is your desire, get a free bass... ANY free bass (MIII, converter, C-system, B-system, Quint, Russian system, Moschino, etc... it doesn't matter!), and enjoy all that it offers, that is the more important step to take. The choices you make after that are going to be personal preferences, and I strongly believe, no matter what you do, that you cannot make a wrong decision after that, no matter what those choices are.

 

[Krikri]

Only free bass without converter accordions are for students, generally chidren. A common model is for example Pigini peter pan. But most of free bass accordions with 3 (lmm) or 4 voices (lmmh) like Pigini or Victoria have a converter system. Without converter you will be stuck for years into classical tunes because playing chords without converter requires great skills.

 

[JerryPH]

Only free bass without converter accordions are for students, generally chidren.

I may be misinterpreting your answer, but I think Ill have to politely disagree.

My Hohner Morino VIN is a full sized model, in its day only a Hohner Gola was the higher model... definitely made for professional use, yet it is an accordion without converter. It is a free bass unit with a full 185 buttons on the left hand.

http://syner-g.no-ip.biz/mymusic/files/185bass.jpg>

You mention the Pigini Peter Pan, this is a much smaller accordion, and yes this would be a converter instrument in a student size. Thre are many variations out there... how about a rare Hohner FB 36 accordion, a pure MIII accordion with no Stradella buttons at all, only free bass, but this is definitely a student model (I also happen to own one of these little jewels as well), so being or not being a converter instrument is no indication of its intended use, student or professional.

http://syner-g.no-ip.biz/mymusic/files/36bass.jpg>

Without converter you will be stuck for years into classical tunes because playing chords without converter requires great skills.

Not having a converter does not mean you cannot have stradella AND free bass on the accordion at the same time, as you now know. However having only a free bass only instrument it can be a bit more difficult to make chords,, but in all fairness, it requires no greater skills to play chords on the left hand if this kind of instrument than it does for any piano player, so if they can do you, you can too, it is just easier to play standard chords on a Stradella system.

 

[Geronimo]

Only free bass without converter accordions are for students, generally chidren. A common model is for example Pigini peter pan.

As you can see on its Pigini web site, Peter Pan is a full-blown converter (including Stradella basses) even though it just has 1 reed in treble and 3 in bass.

You may be confusing this with the even smaller Simba model that is free-bass only in bass.

 

[Waldo]

If I understand the differences correctly, a "free bass" instrument will either be free bass only, or, a standard stradella bass system with extra buttons added for the free bass.
A "converter system" will appear similar to a stradella bass, however, an additional switch or register will "convert" the outer 3 or 4 rows into a free bass system.

Do the "unconverted" rows remain the same?
Do "free bass" systems come in the varieties (Griff) mentioned, or only converters.
Also, please explain MIII, MII, IIIM, etc. (I've seen all these). Is this Middle, Low, Low, Low? If so, shouldn't it be MLLL? I'm so confused.....

Thanks,
Waldo

 

[Geronimo]

If I understand the differences correctly, a free bass instrument will either be free bass only, or, a standard stradella bass system with extra buttons added for the free bass.
A converter system will appear similar to a stradella bass, however, an additional switch or register will convert the outer 3 or 4 rows into a free bass system.

Do the unconverted rows remain the same?

Yes. Ive seen scores making use of that. I have no personal experience with quint converters but would assume that they dont couple their two Stradella bass rows into the chord octave like all other instrument types are likely to do. Would the bass rows couple into the chords in Stradella mode? No idea but Id guess that those two rows are kept unchanged.

Do free bass systems come in the varieties (Griff) mentioned, or only converters.

Free bass systems will not use quint converter layout, and I dont think they use the low-pitch-at-bottom layout of bayans with any system.

Also, please explain MIII, MII, IIIM, etc. (Ive seen all these). Is this Middle, Low, Low, Low? If so, shouldnt it be MLLL? Im so confused.....

I is just a roman numeral digit.

MI : treble manual. MII: Stradella manual (either the full monty or, on converters currently in free bass mode, the remaining two Stradella rows). MIII: free bass manual (in converters only visible in free bass mode in the four outer rows, in instruments with separate free bass always the three inner rows).

 

[Krikri]

Here is a link for you Jerry. Freddy Balta presents Morino stradella+free bass system on french TV in 1962. You live in Quebec so I think you understand french

 

[Morne]

Here is a link for you Jerry. Freddy Balta presents Morino stradella+free bass system on french TV in 1962. You live in Quebec so I think you understand french

This seems to be another player-specific Morino. There are some more details, sound clips and photos of his instrument, apparently from around 1950, here: http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0818063#

Most interesting to me is this long slider:
<ATTACHMENT filename=CMIM000032444.jpg index=0>

It reminds me of the one on Geronimos Morino:
Could it be a similar mechanism for changing the chord inversions?

 

[Geronimo]

Most interesting to me is this long slider:
CMIM000032444.jpg

It reminds me of the one on Geronimos Morino:
Could it be a similar mechanism for changing the chord inversions?

I dont think so: if you look closely, youll find that the actual distance the slider can be moved is rather small, about two fingers width. It just has lots of repeat handles to allow for using the slider from a variety of hand positions. In that respect it resembles the register sliders of my Morino, so I suspect that this just switches a single chord reed set on/off.

Ive never seen mushroom buttons on free bass before, however.

 

[JerryPH]

Most interesting to me is this long slider:
Could it be a similar mechanism for changing the chord inversions?

What a marvelous video!! The host was almost trying to say that he could do things on the organ that could nor be done on the accordion, but then acknowledged not only that he was proven wrong but that he played it better on the accordion. A wonderful surprise is how effectively and how often Balta used his Stradella bass for certain notes right along side his free bass notes. Super effective and just really highlights one of the differences/advantages of the MIII vs converter system.

BTW, that slider is there on mine as well... Its a register change from L to M on the bass. Quite handy at times as sometimes the thumb is closer to the slider than to the bass register buttons. Some people find it annoying and remove it. I learned to work around it.

 

[Geronimo]

Most interesting to me is this long slider:
CMIM000032444.jpg

It reminds me of the one on Geronimos Morino:
Could it be a similar mechanism for changing the chord inversions?

I dont think so: if you look closely, youll find that the actual distance the slider can be moved is rather small, about two fingers width. It just has lots of repeat handles to allow for using the slider from a variety of hand positions. In that respect it resembles the register sliders of my Morino, so I suspect that this just switches a single chord reed set on/off.

Ive never seen mushroom buttons on free bass before, however.

And looking at the video, it seems like the Stradella portion is organized as 3+3 rather than the customary 2+4. Another thing I have never seen on a free bass instrument but very well suited for using the Stradella bass as a pedal substitute since this keeps the distance to the next suitable pedal button smaller.

That kinds of illustrates why I hold Morino in high esteem: its obviously a non-standard instrument designed and built to a single persons specifications, and it makes for a coherent whole. Pity its only sitting in a museum.

 

[Waldo]

I encountered a utube vid of a guy running some fast scales on a Quint system bass. It was very intriguing. He was going to fast for me to determine the layout, but I'm off to search out a quint manual. Does anyone have experience on Quint? I'd like to know your impressions! How common/rare are quint/converter boxes?

Press on....
Waldo

 

[Geronimo]

I encountered a utube vid of a guy running some fast scales on a Quint system bass. It was very intriguing. He was going to fast for me to determine the layout, but Im off to search out a quint manual. Does anyone have experience on Quint? Id like to know your impressions! How common/rare are quint/converter boxes?

They are not that common in Europe in my impression (notwithstanding me recently seeing this example) even though its alternate name Galla Rini free bass system suggests an Italian origin. I think they are more common in the U.S. where Titano focused a long time on selling them.

It would be my guess that those kinds of arpeggii are a lot more of a nuisance to do in minor than in the major showcased in the example above, but here is an actual demo of arpeggii and it does not look that strenuous.

The layout is simple: you just keep the bass in the two bass rows and have the same layout but one octave higher in the next outer two rows, then again an octave higher in the next two (and if you have eight rows of basses, the next two again).

So its basically like playing bass runs on Stradella except that you need to keep track of the octave jump (wherever it may be, probably before C?).

 

[dunlustin]

Richard Galliano is a quint free bass player his Victoria dates rom the 60s
but see:
https://www.accordions.it/en/accordions/professional-w-bottoni/
Not sure about it being a US invention though.

 

[Geronimo]

Richard Galliano is a quint free bass player his Victoria dates rom the 60s
but see:
https://www.accordions.it/en/accordions/professional-w-bottoni/
Not sure about it being a US invention though.

Oh, I dont think thered be much of U.S. invention with regard to accordions going on, but its my impression that Titano was by far the strongest marketer of the quint bass. However, searching for Galla-Rini leads to Anthony Galla-Rini, an influential American accordionist of Italian ancestry. So I may end up having to eat my words. Not that this would be a first.

 

[debra]

[...
Oh, I dont think thered be much of U.S. invention with regard to accordions going on, but its my impression that Titano was by far the strongest marketer of the quint bass...

Titano accordions were made by Victoria (in Castelfidardo) for decades. There is nothing american about Titano. I learned (from reputable source) that Victoria used to actually make many more Titano accordions than Victoria accordions.