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I got this bad boy today!

"This has been the operating procedure for all American manufacturers. Guerrini, ..., Bell,... Giulietti ...and the likes moved their manufacturing to Italy."

yeah right..

Excelsior is the only American manufacturer that moved their actual company
to Italy lock, stock, and barrel, and continued operations

Pan moved their "company" to Crucianelli by entrusting their machines.
forms, and patents to them in a contractual arrangement, but they did not
establish their own factory in Italy

what exactly did Italio-American move to Italy ?

and did Guerrini of San Francisco have any connection whatsoever
to Guerrini in Italy or were they completely separate companies with the
same last name

the question is, when Bell was established, had he already entirely
outgrown the idea of building accordions in the USA ?
Obviously he was capable of building everything in or around an
accordion as he proved from his time at Excelsior, and ACE,
but where was his time best spent (is the answer to what was Bell)
and it's creation had nothing to do with "moving" accordion building
facilities to various manufacturers or locations in Italy that at different times
produced accordions for him

did Giulietti ever build an accordion body from scratch for resale
or did he build from "bare bones" italian boxes from the very start?
 
Excelsior is the only American manufacturer that moved their actual company
to Italy lock, stock, and barrel, and continued operations.

The excelsior brand is still being manufactured by a different business entity which has little to do with the original brand. I see this as a contrast with Petosa. They have been partnering with zerosette for around 80 years with continuity in their model line. I've played several of the old and new models. I've played Bugari and owned a few Giulietti (not the serenelli made ones but zerosette made) models as well.

Classic Petosa models have a very different sound (until mid 80s) and I from that I find the claim (dedicated team + design) to be reasonable.

I'm interested to know more about why you dismissed the claim that Petosa uses a dedicated team. I'm not refuting what you say.
 
I'd imagine for enough money they'd fly someone from Castelfidardo to make you one on the spot.

But their sort of branding is a time honored tradition in accordions, right? It's not as if Zero Sette is a bad manufacturer..,
I did not in any way suggest anything bad about the Petosa accordions. Zero Sette and Bugari are in fact the same outstanding manufacturer.
Zero Sette makes or made excellent accordions under their own name and for the Giulietti and Petosa brand names.
There is just one thing that I really don't like: when accordion brands pretend that they make their own accordions in their own factory in Italy. Petosa does that. Hohner does that as well. And there are several others too. There are even accordion factories that produce nothing under their own name. IMC is one such company that only produces accordions with brand names that suggest they are all independent accordion makers, while all being made by IMC in one factory. There is no dishonesty in stating something like "Scandalli, manufactured by Farfisa" for instance, and I wish that more accordion brands would just state clearly which accordion factory actually makes the instruments with their brand name instead of pretending they have their own production facility somewhere.

Screenshot 2024-03-07 at 08.43.52.png
 
I did not in any way suggest anything bad about the Petosa accordions. Zero Sette and Bugari are in fact the same outstanding manufacturer.
Zero Sette makes or made excellent accordions under their own name and for the Giulietti and Petosa brand names.
There is just one thing that I really don't like: when accordion brands pretend that they make their own accordions in their own factory in Italy. Petosa does that. Hohner does that as well. And there are several others too. There are even accordion factories that produce nothing under their own name. IMC is one such company that only produces accordions with brand names that suggest they are all independent accordion makers, while all being made by IMC in one factory. There is no dishonesty in stating something like "Scandalli, manufactured by Farfisa" for instance, and I wish that more accordion brands would just state clearly which accordion factory actually makes the instruments with their brand name instead of pretending they have their own production facility somewhere.

Screenshot 2024-03-07 at 08.43.52.png
I understand what you're saying, and understand why it bothers you. I was really making small jokes, rather than trying to start an argument.

I don't think these practices are going away anytime soon, though, in most industries, rather the reverse.
 
Petosa is unique as a company

their customers typically have a lifelong relationship with
them, and step up through many accordions, and always
have a good box to play

the price paid to get in and stay in this club is incredibly
steep, and it is normal for their customers to fully buy in
to the lore, legend, myth, whatever you want to call the
bull, because it goes down much better if you are
a true believer

if you can afford to be in this club, by all means, do so,
you won't regret it if money is no object in your life, but be
advised if you project the bull out to the world at large,
you will be laughed at, as only the PETOSA family can really
get away spinning the yarn with a straight face

if you are a moderately gullible person who just likes to feel
you belong to a special club, that you found an insider deal
on the internet no-one else knows about, there are no shortage of
importers and boutique brands of accordions in places like
Pennsylvania and Jersey that are marketed on the coattails of Petosa..
they offer the same or similar ownership experience at a marginally less
astronomical price, and give you a great, unique, long-winded story
to re-tell to other mildly gullible people of your acquaintance

again, at the risk of mirth.

Value can be added to a product in many ways, marketing is
the easiest, countless hours hand finishing using the best materials
the hardest.. you takes your pick you pays your price.. once it leaves
the showroom floor (or the trade up guarantee) the re-sale
value drops in breathtaking fashion

and as always, the test of time is the great leveler
 
and did Guerrini of San Francisco have any connection whatsoever
to Guerrini in Italy or were they completely separate companies with the
same last name
I was trying to find more information on any possible connections.
This is what I remember from what I read a long time ago.

The Guerrini company of San Francisco was one of the first Accordion factories. A family member moved to East and then moved to Italy.
I did not in any way suggest anything bad about the Petosa accordions. Zero Sette and Bugari are in fact the same outstanding manufacturer.
Zero Sette makes or made excellent accordions under their own name and for the Giulietti and Petosa brand names.
There is just one thing that I really don't like: when accordion brands pretend that they make their own accordions in their own factory in Italy. Petosa does that. Hohner does that as well. And there are several others too. There are even accordion factories that produce nothing under their own name. IMC is one such company that only produces accordions with brand names that suggest they are all independent accordion makers, while all being made by IMC in one factory. There is no dishonesty in stating something like "Scandalli, manufactured by Farfisa" for instance, and I wish that more accordion brands would just state clearly which accordion factory actually makes the instruments with their brand name instead of pretending they have their own production facility somewhere.

Screenshot 2024-03-07 at 08.43.52.png
I see this as the same way that we see iPhones as a product of Apple. Apple doesn't own any factories in China. FoxConn makes it for them. Foxconn also makes PlayStation.
GoPro is another example (FoxConn again).

What I see as a distinction is having a definitive product line that has design and specifications.

This is different from buying products from white label manufacturers and selling as a private label (Amazon basics, Costco's Kirkland signature).
Petosa made by zerosette can't be put in the same league as some brand that buys from IMC.

Also, Petosa now owns the Giulietti brand and Petosa merged with Bugari.
 
Value can be added to a product in many ways, marketing is
the easiest, countless hours hand finishing using the best materials
the hardest.. you takes your pick you pays your price.. once it leaves
the showroom floor (or the trade up guarantee) the re-sale
value drops in breathtaking fashion

and as always, the test of time is the great leveler
I don't think there's any accordion that can out do an AM-1100 in resale value (despite the steep asking price).
So I see a big contradiction in your claim.
Of all the Accordions I've sold, the two Petosas I've traded in have had the least depreciation (actually sold one for a profit).

Also buying pre owned from Petosa is the best of both worlds. It's almost the same price as others and you get excellent warranty and service.

Regarding your claim that the customers are gullible, I want to respond to it in detail. I've got a lot to uncover here.

I don't want to name all of the specific brands and dealers here (because some are friends), but I've had bad experiences with several of them (quality control issues, lack of support etc). I know several Petosa owners and I am yet to meet a single customer who has had a complaint.

Personally, I've gone down that route of buying something cheaper only to be disappointed and to sell it back (for a huge loss).

Here is an anecdote about Bugari.

People often claim that Bugari and Petosa are largely the same product with different badges and an inflated pricetag for the Petosa. A few years ago, in a thread in this forum, Kimric Smythe made an interesting claim. Kimric pens and operates Smythe's accordion in California. He claimed that Boaz Accordions (one of the authorized dealers for Bugari in Berkeley, California) went out of business because of all the quality control issues and the losses suffered by honoring warranty repairs on Bugari products. At the time a lot of members in the thread were surprised given that Bugari had a stellar reputation. I thought that this had something to do with the fact that Kimric is an authorized dealer for weltmeister. Maybe it was professional rivalry (most Accordion businesses have something not nice to say about other accordion business 😁).

Years later, my teacher mentioned that he used to work for Boaz Accordions. He confirmed that they faced a slew of issues from the Bugari models they sold in the early 2000s. They were overwhelmed by the repairs. He also mentioned that there were other reasons for the business to go under water. In fact, they abruptly closed doors without any announcements. He showed up for work today and found out that they were no longer around.

I have owned 8 Petosa Accordions. Along with the cathedral model I bought now, I have six (4 new, 2 pre owned). They are all fantastic Accordions and that's the reason I'm keeping them. I personally know more than 20 petosa owners (friends and contacts from the accordion club). Not a single complaint about the instrument's quality or service. I have never read a single negative review from any Petosa other in any of the forums or websites.

Here is a list of other Accordions that I previously bought and I had to let go because of bad experience.

1) Hohner Morino VI N:
Free 185 bass (stradella + m3 free bass) with extended keyboard. Pre owned golden era accordion. Purchase price: $7k. Sold after 10 months for $1.5K.
Why did I sell it? It was a klebe Morino (look it up). In 100 years of being in business, I am yet to see one instance of Petosa messing up with a product design and then not taking care of it under warranty.
2) Beltuna spirit V:
Purchased this to of the line accordion for a very attractive pre owned price of $5k. Sold it to a dealer for $3k. Why didn't I like it? Bass reeds were unremarkable. Didn't enjoy playing it
3) Beltuna Prestige:
Purchased pre owned from Liberty Bellows. Returned it in a month because the accordion was unremarkable.
4) Pigini Senior converter accordion:
Only Authorized service center in the US won't answer phone calls or emails. I give up after 2 months of trying. Traded it. (Lost 70% value because the problem wasn't fixed).
5) [name redacted] (because the dealer is a friend).
Brand new top of the line accordion ($10K) from a well known brand. The accordion played and sounded great but there were open holes on top of the bass button holes because of how the board was cut. Shocking quality control.
Again, you can never see problems like this in a Petosa.
6) the legendary Scandalli Super (N series from Golden era).
Great accordion overall. But I wasn't happy with the reed efficiency. Sold it back at 50% of purchase price after 2 years. Honestly, I liked by Petosa Chambertone better.
7) Hohner Gola (pre owned from the 1970s)
Purchased for $10k. The accordion needed service (curled leathers, voicing etc). There was no authorized service center in the US. I didn't want to take a chance by trying to service this elsewhere. Sold it to a private party for $9K.
8) Victoria Poeta:
This one is not mine but a friend's. I'm his own words: "the insides are as ugly and poorly made as the outside is beautiful. Very poor quality control. Reed work is horrible.
9) Brand New Scandalli Super VI;
This was also a friend's purchase. Purchased from Liberty Bellows. In his own words: "they should be ashamed to sell a new accordion with pathetic reed work like this. They were not able to fix the problems after trying several times. I returned it".
10) Beltuna converter accordion (purchased new from Liberty Bellows): This was a friend of a friend. Accordion sent back to dealer several times for issues that were not fixed. Had to send it back to Italy to get it fixed.


Now compare that with 8 out of 8 Petosa Accordions that I've owned. I enjoy all of them. I have a very responsive service team. I can drive (12 hours) to drop off for service (usually mic installs) and I don't need to worry about shipping damage.


Are they expensive? Yes.
Are the products worth it? Yes
Are there cheaper alternatives? For me, this has been a hit or miss. But you can find one if you look harder.
Are there better options for where I live(California): not really
Is there anything I've purchased that has had same level of quality control, enjoyable product and service? Not yet. There have been some good purchases but they've all fallen short at one of the aspects.

I'm discounting that that there are disgruntled Petosa customer out there that I haven't met. Given how popular they are, the fact that I haven't met one yet is a testament to the way they do business.


Tldr; you are free to have your opinions, but I don't appreciate discounting other people's experiences and calling them gullible.
 
I should also mention that one of my friends purchased a new custom ordered Serenellini that he is very pleased with. He says it is as good as any accordion he has and it was a bargain.

But during my conversations with Paul DeBra he did mention some problems he has encountered while repairing Serenellini.


I personally have not played zerosette and I can't comment about that, but they don't have an authorized dealership or an authorized service center.

So far Petosa seems to be the only brand that checks all of the following boxes.

1) No history of bad business practices or quality control issues.
2) authorized service center that is reliable
3) Close enough (compared to other options) to drive and drop off accordion for service (for my location)
4) fantastic product
 
Here is a list of other Accordions that I previously bought and I had to let go because of bad experience.
Just one observation: you list a number of significant losses, but some of those are due to you buying at the price the market considered the instruments worth and selling at the price you considered the instruments worth. Mind you, I've done the same at times: who wants to feel like a fraud? But there may be times where one is exaggerating in that regard because it reaffirms the selling decision that the instrument "is not worth" what you thought it to be.
 
Just one observation: you list a number of significant losses, but some of those are due to you buying at the price the market considered the instruments worth and selling at the price you considered the instruments worth. Mind you, I've done the same at times: who wants to feel like a fraud? But there may be times where one is exaggerating in that regard because it reaffirms the selling decision that the instrument "is not worth" what you thought it to be.
Yes. I agree. I've never thought about that angle, but it's so true. Not getting good offers for a listing could make it less attractive.

But in most cases, the lack of satisfaction precedes my attempts to sell it. If I liked it, I won't even try to find out how much I can sell it for.

And selling back to a dealer comes with overhead. The point I want to emphasize is the repeat occurrence of the number of times I decided to let go of Accordions because it either has problems I didn't like it enough.

An example here is the Gola that I bought for $10k and sold it for $9k. That's because I sold it to a private party that wanted the accordion. A lot of times, that option is unavailable when you go for less popular brands.

I couldn't find a buyer for a Beltuna spirit V for $5k. That thing sells for $18k new.

The Morino was the worst experience. The dealer told me that the keys and buttons are stiff because they haven't been played recently. He outright lied to me about a recurring issue that was so well documented that it even has a name for it.
 
And selling back to a dealer comes with overhead. The point I want to emphasize is the repeat occurrence of the number of times I decided to let go of Accordions because it either has problems [or] I didn't like it enough.
Accordions are a diverse bunch. You'll be hard put to find a violinist owning as many instruments as the average accordionist.
 
There is just one thing that I really don't like: when accordion brands pretend that they make their own accordions in their own factory in Italy. Petosa does that.

I noticed that. Some think that Petosa high pricing are more related to marketing rather than quality of their instruments, which is really good, but still.

They should be honest to their customers. Most of them might think Petosa are instruments made in the USA
 
I noticed that. Some think that Petosa high pricing are more related to marketing rather than quality of their instruments, which is really good, but still.

They should be honest to their customers. Most of them might think Petosa are instruments made in the USA
Their website mentions that they are made in the zerosette factory in Italy
 
My Petosa also has a serial saying it is made in Italy. However, in their advertisement, they omit that and give the impression that their accordions are made in the house.
Thanks Jaime. For clarification, could you please post a screen shot of the ad?
 
Yes. It's more of a fine print.
Well, try finding the "wholly owned subsidiary of KHS Musical Instruments in Taiwan where the bulk of current production is" fine print on the Hohner websites. You won't. Interestingly, the KHS websites are equally silent about their Hohner brand and ownership. The Managing Director of Hohner GmbH happens to be Arthur Chuang these days, but they did have a German acting in this position until fairly recently.

In the end, the bulk of brand recognition lies with product quality independent of how it is achieved (or not), with considerable inertia with regard to following actual developments. I don't think that KHS tries milking the remnants of Hohner brand recognition by selling trash while it lasts: in my view they are trying to revert the drop of quality that is kind of unavoidable with a move of production facilities, maintaining the brand as a long-term asset.
 
Thanks Jaime. For clarification, could you please post a screen shot of the ad?
1709823983337.png


Sure, Tom. Right at the front site of their website:




Disclaimer: I am not being sponsored by them, ha!
 
Th
1709823983337.png


Sure, Tom. Right at the front site of their website:




Disclaimer: I am not being sponsored by them, ha!
Thanks Jaime, you’re right, clear as mud! Unfortunate because they do sound and play amazing. Is it worth the extra cash to get that quality and service? Yeah, I would buy one if I had that cash lying around. Same with Planet, and other expensive US branded and “somewhere else, probably Italy” made accordions. For now, I’m happy as a pig in s**t with what I got, thank you!
 
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