I got this bad boy today!

[debra]

Trying to buy good quality, reliable, accordions without factory defects and with amazing sound and look and feel is a difficult process with many pitfalls... I have done repairs (for friends) on accordions of many different brands, A fellow repairer told me to expect quite a few (he mentioned a number over 50) defects in brand new accordions, but it varies between companies. A reputable dealer will check new accordions very carefully for factory defects, and make all necessary repairs. The mentioned experience with Petosa (I have none) is a clear indication that Petosa must be doing post-production checks and repairs before shipping the accordions to customers. The Bugari dealer I have dealt with in the past also does checks, even still in the factory before they pick up the accordions (and transport them in their own van), and gets the factory to fix the issues they find in a matter of hours. Generally I have had good experience with Bugari. Every accordion has minor imperfections due to manufacturing (like badly positioned reeds or valves) and some have problems due to their design (meaning all accordions of the same model have the same issues). Let me show just a few examples. I have many more.

Badly placed bellows gasket tape (Victoria).

A reed that had to be lowered to avoid hitting something. (Victoria)

Long screw through thin piece of wood, offering very little strength. (Victoria)


Reed plate misalligned, and as a result the inside valve was stuck. (Serenellini)

Register switches with very weak structure, bound to break sooner rather than later. (Hohner Morino made by Excelsior.)

Cutout in bellows frame not large enough and not positioned correctly, so the reeds in cassotto hit the frame. (Bugari)

Reed blocks too close together so the reeds hit the next reed block. (Hohner Morino IV M).

 

[breezybellows]

Trying to buy good quality, reliable, accordions without factory defects and with amazing sound and look and feel is a difficult process with many pitfalls... I have done repairs (for friends) on accordions of many different brands, A fellow repairer told me to expect quite a few (he mentioned a number over 50) defects in brand new accordions, but it varies between companies. A reputable dealer will check new accordions very carefully for factory defects, and make all necessary repairs. The mentioned experience with Petosa (I have none) is a clear indication that Petosa must be doing post-production checks and repairs before shipping the accordions to customers. The Bugari dealer I have dealt with in the past also does checks, even still in the factory before they pick up the accordions (and transport them in their own van), and gets the factory to fix the issues they find in a matter of hours. Generally I have had good experience with Bugari. Every accordion has minor imperfections due to manufacturing (like badly positioned reeds or valves) and some have problems due to their design (meaning all accordions of the same model have the same issues). Let me show just a few examples. I have many more.

I had a long Facebook chat with you regarding this last year. It was an eye opener. This was when I was freaking with the klebemorino.

You did rate Bugari very highly (compared to Victoria, Serenellini etc). In fact you mentioned that Bugari accordions were boring from a repairer's perspective given the lack of surprises.

Until I heard about the issue about Boaz Accordions from my teacher, I had assumed that the quality control on Petosa and Bugari were identical. I assume the problems with Bugari sold by Boaz might be because of the shortcomings from Boaz compared to how Petosa does post production checks at the shop. This might also be because of how many more dealerships are there for other brands compared to Petosa. I've generally heard his things about Bugari and this issue with Boaz was an exception.

As you mentioned, so many factors need to align. For where I am located, going with Petosa has worked out seamlessly. I can get a new Beltuna from Liberty Bellows for about 20% cheaper, but I'll be taking a chance on support post purchase.

Buying certified pre owned accordions from Petosa seems to be the best of both worlds. It's priced similar to other dealers and you get a warranty and support that is better than other places.

 

[breezybellows]

Disclaimer: I am not being sponsored by them, ha!

For me, It's the other way around. I have been sponsoring them

 

[mtj]

What I meant to say is that the lowest notes do not feature in the chords in Stradella mode.
Let me tell you what happens in the accordion I used (probably exactly what happens on the Petosa/Giulietti/Zero-Sette).
When you use stradella. the lowest octave of the melody bass still plays melody bass. That means the following: if you go up the base notes on Stradella the G# is the last one that still has all the chords, and the D# still has major, minor and seventh but has no diminished chord. Where the diminished chord should be is D# from the lowest octave in melody bass. So the whole lowest octave in melody bass is always melody bass. There is no switch to turn these notes into chords. By moving the lowest octave "partly" out the way only a few rows of Stradella are affected.
In Stradella the base notes still use the lowest octave completely, so the lowest base note in standard bass is still the low E.

Thanks for explaining this. I have a Giulietti F.4.T and wondered why the upper chords don’t work. Mine isn’t exactly the same as you describe, for example the diminished chords all work fine and D# doesn’t have maj and min. Still it’s nice to understand what’s going on.

 

[Zevy]

I don't think there's any accordion that can out do an AM-1100 in resale value (despite the steep asking price).
So I see a big contradiction in your claim.
Of all the Accordions I've sold, the two Petosas I've traded in have had the least depreciation (actually sold one for a profit).

Also buying pre owned from Petosa is the best of both worlds. It's almost the same price as others and you get excellent warranty and service.

Regarding your claim that the customers are gullible, I want to respond to it in detail. I've got a lot to uncover here.

I don't want to name all of the specific brands and dealers here (because some are friends), but I've had bad experiences with several of them (quality control issues, lack of support etc). I know several Petosa owners and I am yet to meet a single customer who has had a complaint.

Personally, I've gone down that route of buying something cheaper only to be disappointed and to sell it back (for a huge loss).

Here is an anecdote about Bugari.

People often claim that Bugari and Petosa are largely the same product with different badges and an inflated pricetag for the Petosa. A few years ago, in a thread in this forum, Kimric Smythe made an interesting claim. Kimric pens and operates Smythe's accordion in California. He claimed that Boaz Accordions (one of the authorized dealers for Bugari in Berkeley, California) went out of business because of all the quality control issues and the losses suffered by honoring warranty repairs on Bugari products. At the time a lot of members in the thread were surprised given that Bugari had a stellar reputation. I thought that this had something to do with the fact that Kimric is an authorized dealer for weltmeister. Maybe it was professional rivalry (most Accordion businesses have something not nice to say about other accordion business ).

Years later, my teacher mentioned that he used to work for Boaz Accordions. He confirmed that they faced a slew of issues from the Bugari models they sold in the early 2000s. They were overwhelmed by the repairs. He also mentioned that there were other reasons for the business to go under water. In fact, they abruptly closed doors without any announcements. He showed up for work today and found out that they were no longer around.

I have owned 8 Petosa Accordions. Along with the cathedral model I bought now, I have six (4 new, 2 pre owned). They are all fantastic Accordions and that's the reason I'm keeping them. I personally know more than 20 petosa owners (friends and contacts from the accordion club). Not a single complaint about the instrument's quality or service. I have never read a single negative review from any Petosa other in any of the forums or websites.

Here is a list of other Accordions that I previously bought and I had to let go because of bad experience.

1) Hohner Morino VI N:
Free 185 bass (stradella + m3 free bass) with extended keyboard. Pre owned golden era accordion. Purchase price: $7k. Sold after 10 months for $1.5K.
Why did I sell it? It was a klebe Morino (look it up). In 100 years of being in business, I am yet to see one instance of Petosa messing up with a product design and then not taking care of it under warranty.
2) Beltuna spirit V:
Purchased this to of the line accordion for a very attractive pre owned price of $5k. Sold it to a dealer for $3k. Why didn't I like it? Bass reeds were unremarkable. Didn't enjoy playing it
3) Beltuna Prestige:
Purchased pre owned from Liberty Bellows. Returned it in a month because the accordion was unremarkable.
4) Pigini Senior converter accordion:
Only Authorized service center in the US won't answer phone calls or emails. I give up after 2 months of trying. Traded it. (Lost 70% value because the problem wasn't fixed).
5) [name redacted] (because the dealer is a friend).
Brand new top of the line accordion ($10K) from a well known brand. The accordion played and sounded great but there were open holes on top of the bass button holes because of how the board was cut. Shocking quality control.
Again, you can never see problems like this in a Petosa.
6) the legendary Scandalli Super (N series from Golden era).
Great accordion overall. But I wasn't happy with the reed efficiency. Sold it back at 50% of purchase price after 2 years. Honestly, I liked by Petosa Chambertone better.
7) Hohner Gola (pre owned from the 1970s)
Purchased for $10k. The accordion needed service (curled leathers, voicing etc). There was no authorized service center in the US. I didn't want to take a chance by trying to service this elsewhere. Sold it to a private party for $9K.
8) Victoria Poeta:
This one is not mine but a friend's. I'm his own words: "the insides are as ugly and poorly made as the outside is beautiful. Very poor quality control. Reed work is horrible.
9) Brand New Scandalli Super VI;
This was also a friend's purchase. Purchased from Liberty Bellows. In his own words: "they should be ashamed to sell a new accordion with pathetic reed work like this. They were not able to fix the problems after trying several times. I returned it".
10) Beltuna converter accordion (purchased new from Liberty Bellows): This was a friend of a friend. Accordion sent back to dealer several times for issues that were not fixed. Had to send it back to Italy to get it fixed.


Now compare that with 8 out of 8 Petosa Accordions that I've owned. I enjoy all of them. I have a very responsive service team. I can drive (12 hours) to drop off for service (usually mic installs) and I don't need to worry about shipping damage.


Are they expensive? Yes.
Are the products worth it? Yes
Are there cheaper alternatives? For me, this has been a hit or miss. But you can find one if you look harder.
Are there better options for where I live(California): not really
Is there anything I've purchased that has had same level of quality control, enjoyable product and service? Not yet. There have been some good purchases but they've all fallen short at one of the aspects.

I'm discounting that that there are disgruntled Petosa customer out there that I haven't met. Given how popular they are, the fact that I haven't met one yet is a testament to the way they do business.


Tldr; you are free to have your opinions, but I don't appreciate discounting other people's experiences and calling them gullible.

I couldn’t agree with you more. Petosa is a class act. They are so dedicated and honest with me even though I bought my accordion (AM-1100 used) from a third party. All I bought from them were various accessories. A friend of mine wanted to trade with me his vintage Settimio Soprani Artist VI. I wouldn’t hear of it.

 

[saundersbp]

Petosa is a class act.

You are getting the best of each country involved:
- China: financial investment in Bugari making it strong and stable.
- Italy: apparently they know a thing or two about making accordions.
- USA: the king of customer service and brand values

Loyalty to great American brands is an important quality as explained in this short educational video.

 

[debra]

You are getting the best of each country involved:
- China: financial investment in Bugari making it strong and stable.
- Italy: apparently they know a thing or two about making accordions.
- USA: the king of customer service and brand values

Loyalty to great American brands is an important quality as explained in this short educational video.

I guess it must be a great combination. China has the money, Italy knows how to make accordions, but doesn't know how to do a proper job of making them without factory defects and doesn't do good quality control, and the USA knows customer service much better than for instance European countries... (That is generally speaking of course. For every 10 lousy accordion dealers who don't know the first thing about maintenance, service and repair there is maybe 1 reliable dealer who does it all.)

 

[Ventura]

and he died about a year ago

 

[breezybellows]

and he died about a year ago

Who?

 

[Tom]

and he died about a year ago

This is a problem. The people with the major knowledge are old. Let’s not mention the butchers. (All due respect to the honest repairers on this forum, you know who you are and we appreciate you so much.) Since Jerry S. passed I’m on my own for repairs, and, having made the decision to concentrate on playing rather than repairing, I’m going to have to bite the bullet one of these years and try tuning. I’m not leaving my Piatanesi with someone I don’t know. Been there, done that, heard Breezy’s story, etc. Too bad you’re so far away Ventura.

 

[JCarl]

Trying to buy good quality, reliable, accordions without factory defects and with amazing sound and look and feel is a difficult process with many pitfalls... I have done repairs (for friends) on accordions of many different brands, A fellow repairer told me to expect quite a few (he mentioned a number over 50) defects in brand new accordions, but it varies between companies. A reputable dealer will check new accordions very carefully for factory defects, and make all necessary repairs. The mentioned experience with Petosa (I have none) is a clear indication that Petosa must be doing post-production checks and repairs before shipping the accordions to customers. The Bugari dealer I have dealt with in the past also does checks, even still in the factory before they pick up the accordions (and transport them in their own van), and gets the factory to fix the issues they find in a matter of hours. Generally I have had good experience with Bugari. Every accordion has minor imperfections due to manufacturing (like badly positioned reeds or valves) and some have problems due to their design (meaning all accordions of the same model have the same issues). Let me show just a few examples. I have many more.

Badly placed bellows gasket tape (Victoria).

A reed that had to be lowered to avoid hitting something. (Victoria)

Long screw through thin piece of wood, offering very little strength. (Victoria)


Reed plate misalligned, and as a result the inside valve was stuck. (Serenellini)

Register switches with very weak structure, bound to break sooner rather than later. (Hohner Morino made by Excelsior.)

Cutout in bellows frame not large enough and not positioned correctly, so the reeds in cassotto hit the frame. (Bugari)

Reed blocks too close together so the reeds hit the next reed block. (Hohner Morino IV M).

I spent about six years restoring rebuilding pianos as a tech and I used to see things like this on brand new pianos because these instruments are just so intricate unless it’s gone over by a real tech at the end of the day that it’s gonna be shipped with some boo-boos

 

[Xiane]

Who?

Whomever it was who knew how to fix accordions properly, would be my guess.

I also think some of these discussions are funny. If someone knows they're paying a lot, and that person is still very happy? Maybe it means that there are people who value something besides strict dollars in/dollars out in their lives? Who are you to say they're wrong?

I work in wine, and there are people who just can't understand paying more than, say, $12 a bottle for wine. They get pretty worked up about it, too. Great. Good for you, $12 guy. Drink the cheapest wine you can enjoy, I say. Accordions, with the service and enjoyment aspect, seem similar.

 

[dak]

I work in wine, and there are people who just can't understand paying more than, say, $12 a bottle for wine. They get pretty worked up about it, too. Great. Good for you, $12 guy. Drink the cheapest wine you can enjoy, I say. Accordions, with the service and enjoyment aspect, seem similar.

The wine is gone after you finish it. That makes the economics very dissimilar. My main accordion will move on when I am gone like it did with previous owners. So will my violin. They are just boarders paying for their stay with a song.

In the basement of an ex's late father, we found several wine bottles that were forgotten there decades ago in a wine rack. About two in three were really enjoyable. A few were unsavory. One was seriously funny (a rosé mutated into some kind of sherry). The good ones I would not have been able to afford had I wanted to buy anything like it professionally catered for, with a strong aroma and void of tannins. I don't see the point in trying to repeat that experience. Similarly I do not see it in repeating the experience when I came by pounds of porcini and made a simple dish from them.

Those instances of luxury by luck are not remembered less fondly because they are not repeatable. But the experience of playing an instrument is something that can go on while you last. It's more like a vineyard than a wine bottle. Not least of all because someone needs to put in the work before there is bottled pleasure.

 

[micahcowan]

- USA: the king of customer service and brand values

I have to say, as a US American, that this notion is disturbing to me. I mean, obviously Petosa has a solid reputation for their customer service, so I'm not speaking of them. But if this sentiment is meant more broadly... Customer service out here often seems truly abysmal, and I often lament that the bottom line for the vast majority of Americans is... the bottom line ("how much does it cost"), without factoring in quality control and customer service. We prefer to whine and complain than to reward excellent quality or service, apparently (even though I'm sure I'm part of the problem). So many massive businesses are built on "building to fail", so that we keep coming back to repurchase replacements, instead of having products that last us a lifetime with just occasional maintenance.

I have the distinct impression that it is regular practice for most companies to practice PR and customer service that would be absolutely unconscionable in, say, Japan. I feel that customers there will be outraged when they're treated in ways that are already better than we're accustomed to be habitually treated, here. (China's a completely different story, of course.) I'd imagined that Europe would also have more standards about how they allow corporations to treat them. Perhaps because of some laws I've heard of in the UK that prevent the sort of "bleeding" of commercial advertising and general capitalist shenanigans, into the actual "content" portion of various forms of media (TV in particular, I think?). It's very disheartening for me to hear Europeans point to the USA as a model of customer service.

 

[dak]

I have to say, as a US American, that this notion is disturbing to me. I mean, obviously Petosa has a solid reputation for their customer service, so I'm not speaking of them. But if this sentiment is meant more broadly... Customer service out here often seems truly abysmal, and I often lament that the bottom line for the vast majority of Americans is... the bottom line ("how much does it cost"), without factoring in quality control and customer service.

I am probably somewhat off the charts here in that I love and recommend brands for their non-customer service. I've had photographic flash producers send me the circuit diagrams of flashes I bought second-hand (Metz, now pretty much entirely gone), I've had MIDI manufacturers send me usage instructions for decades-old MIDI installations I bought second-hand (Merki-Midi, a Swiss product). I'm fixing and reworking Peavey amps I did not buy from Peavey thanks to schematics I got from Peavey, and so on.

On a tangent, when I had to exchange some lightbulbs in a decades old Mercedes, the whole light assembly just folded out and put all the labeled lamps into clear view and access. Also a kind of service to non-customers, a love letter from engineer to mechanic. I've seen modern cars where exchanging a bulb was akin to endoscopic surgery through a fender, requiring a manual and the better part of an hour.

If you can reach the people who are proud of their products, they will often give you what it takes to keep the products going, possibly to the chagrin of short-term bean counters but doing brand maintenance through people others turn to for advice.

 

[Xiane]

The wine is gone after you finish it. That makes the economics very dissimilar. My main accordion will move on when I am gone like it did with previous owners. So will my violin. They are just boarders paying for their stay with a song.

In the basement of an ex's late father, we found several wine bottles that were forgotten there decades ago in a wine rack. About two in three were really enjoyable. A few were unsavory. One was seriously funny (a rosé mutated into some kind of sherry). The good ones I would not have been able to afford had I wanted to buy anything like it professionally catered for, with a strong aroma and void of tannins. I don't see the point in trying to repeat that experience. Similarly I do not see it in repeating the experience when I came by pounds of porcini and made a simple dish from them.

Those instances of luxury by luck are not remembered less fondly because they are not repeatable. But the experience of playing an instrument is something that can go on while you last. It's more like a vineyard than a wine bottle. Not least of all because someone needs to put in the work before there is bottled pleasure.

That's not exactly how high end wine collecting and buying, works, though.

Certainly one bottle will be gone when you drink it (though now there are gadgets to take just a bit from the bottle without ruining the wine for more aging, they work), that's not a surprise to anyone. Someone who is passionate about wine, instead of, say, musical instruments, will buy a case, probably year after year from a producer they love. The value is in the experience then, usually, rather than an object, though some certainly collect in order to sell.

Just as someone who really knows music can appreciate the differences in the quality of an instrument, or a player, someone who appreciates wine will taste the difference from vintage to vintage, or vineyard to vineyard, and be able to understand how the wine ages. Like music, it's a skill almost no one has unless they try to cultivate it.

A bit like accordions, most wines do not age especially well, even if stored properly. Some because the varietal simply doesn't, some because it was made (as most wines today) to be opened almost immediately after purchase, and some because it wasn't stored properly (and sometimes due to a fault in the wine, or the closure, though this is fairly rare now).

If the experience or the value proposition of fine wine doesn't offer you pleasure, don't do it. As I said, "drink the cheapest wine you can enjoy". I meant that. Like music, if you cultivate your understanding, it can be more of a curse than a blessing.

 

[Rodney]

I still can't believe that I got this. From eBay of all the places. I can't believe my luck.
Not giving away the model name yet. Let me see if you can guess!

Congratulations on your new bad boy Breezy

 

[Xiane]

I have to say, as a US American, that this notion is disturbing to me. I mean, obviously Petosa has a solid reputation for their customer service, so I'm not speaking of them. But if this sentiment is meant more broadly... Customer service out here often seems truly abysmal, and I often lament that the bottom line for the vast majority of Americans is... the bottom line ("how much does it cost"), without factoring in quality control and customer service. We prefer to whine and complain than to reward excellent quality or service, apparently (even though I'm sure I'm part of the problem). So many massive businesses are built on "building to fail", so that we keep coming back to repurchase replacements, instead of having products that last us a lifetime with just occasional maintenance.

I have the distinct impression that it is regular practice for most companies to practice PR and customer service that would be absolutely unconscionable in, say, Japan. I feel that customers there will be outraged when they're treated in ways that are already better than we're accustomed to be habitually treated, here. (China's a completely different story, of course.) I'd imagined that Europe would also have more standards about how they allow corporations to treat them. Perhaps because of some laws I've heard of in the UK that prevent the sort of "bleeding" of commercial advertising and general capitalist shenanigans, into the actual "content" portion of various forms of media (TV in particular, I think?). It's very disheartening for me to hear Europeans point to the USA as a model of customer service.

I could talk a lot about how customer service differs in the US versus other countries I've lived in. And it really does differ.

I think in most cases it suits the markets, and also, the relative level of wealth and competition. And also, simply what those customers expect. The idea that losing one customer inevitably loses you more customers in the US is, I think, true.

Maybe someone will tell you about their great experience (see Petosa above - where satisfied customers are doing their advertising, and you tend to believe them because why would they lie? Now it's just about price.), On the other hand, someone will almost always tell you about a bad experience if you ask about a place. Better to make a customer happy if you can, or at least not vengeful. Better to give something away you can afford. Not everywhere thinks that way, at all.

 

[C Woj]

I decided to buy a Petosa for all the reasons listed. I bought it used on Reverb for half the cost of a brand new same model (AM1050). So far, i am quite happy with it. I know if i have a problem or need maintenance I know exactly where i can send it. And it's only 5 years old, not 60 or 70.

 

[96Bass]

I still can't believe that I got this. From eBay of all the places. I can't believe my luck.
Not giving away the model name yet. Let me see if you can guess!

Hello Joseph and congratulations on this beautiful new accordion.
In a recent post you compared your accordions and rated your Petosa Artista Proxt as your top accordion. How does the Grand Cathedral compare in regard to keyboard action, responsiveness, etc.