Is that all plastic, not wood (Weltmeister Diana 120 Bass model)?

[debra]

It's my understanding of physics that accordion manufacturers have worked to reduce the size (and weight) of piano accordion keys. The modern instruments have keys much smaller (and lighter) than those from a pre-war period. This change is simply to reduce the inertia of the key action and make it faster and lighter for the player. It's a fundamental difference in the actions of piano keyboards and button keyboards.

Sure there are advantages of having lighter keys. The main problem though with the very light cheap all-plastic keys is that the connection between the key and the metal arm going to the pallet is weak, and often the precise positioning of the key so it doesn't wobble left or right is also lacking.
With these Weltmeisters though the reed blocks are much more of a problem. They are simply rubbish. The wax doesn't work very well as a glue on them and nailing into plastic is also not a good idea. I have worked with this rubbish. A tuning job quickly becomes a nightmare!

 

[zqd9853572002]

Wise decision! The keys are all very lightweight plastic so they have no inertia from their weight. (Only the metal arms and pallets have weight.)
The soft plastic hollow reed blocks do very little in providing the "resonance" that gives accordions a more substantial sound than the reeds alone.
In general plastic is not by definition a bad material, but the way it is used in the Weltmeister (sparingly, using as little material as possible) is not the best way to use the plastic.

totally agreed, I still love the feeling of wood.

 

[zqd9853572002]

It's my understanding of physics that accordion manufacturers have worked to reduce the size (and weight) of piano accordion keys. The modern instruments have keys much smaller (and lighter) than those from a pre-war period. This change is simply to reduce the inertia of the key action and make it faster and lighter for the player. It's a fundamental difference in the actions of piano keyboards and button keyboards.

wondering are there anyways to make the plastic key to have the feeling of the wooden key (the feeling of the rebound)...

 

[Dingo40]

wondering are there anyways to make the plastic key to have the feeling of the wooden key (the feeling of the rebound)...

Why not just make it of wood in the first place?
There was a period when PA key bodies were made of pressed metal ( mild steel, I thought) covered with celluloid (?).
These were almost indestructible .
I'm surprised they didn't continue with these

 

[zqd9853572002]

Why not just make it of wood in the first place?

that's the question hitting the soul, lolol

 

[debra]

wondering are there anyways to make the plastic key to have the feeling of the wooden key (the feeling of the rebound)...

I don't know enough about material science to be able to answer this question. But I don't believe that plastic versus wood is really what makes the difference in the "feel". Plastic keys are *all* plastic, and the metal arm (lever) going to the pallet is glued in at the back of the key. (And that's also where it tends to break off or come unglued.) With wooden keys the metal arm actually also runs the entire length of the key, comes out at the back and then bends and continues towards the pallet. Typically near the front end of the key the metal becomes a "guide pin" that fits through a wooden comb to prevent sideways motion. So the wooden keys have a better balance of the amount of weight (metal) on both sides of the hinge. I'm sure the same could be done with all-plastic keys, but that isn't the common practice.
Note: I also play the digital piano a bit and also there the feel of digital piano keyboards with plastic keys versus those with wooden keys is very different. Needless to say I have a piano with wooden keys (and hammers).

 

[Ventura]

while some in the industry did strive for lighter weight overall with
the keys and mechanisms, except for the extremely few companies
that manufacture their own action assemblies, the weight has actually now
increased as the demand for commonly sized actions from 3rd parties
rather forced them to thicken the aluminum in the arm's etc. so that they
would have a better survivability rate without distention from the time they leave
the specialist factory until they ship, get stored, unpacked, moved around, and
assembled into some accordion somewhere

i would still think the general feeling is also that Walnut keys remain a best practice

regarding hollow, or plastic, keys: a simple and effective way to weight them
for a better feel is to just get a medium sized tube of Automotive Silicon repair/gasket
material, and squeeze a neatly sized dollop in under the tip of each hollow key..
i did this on several instruments over time, including a wonderful old-tech "tine" harp
toy Piano.. the difference in the "Feel" of the action and the way the extra weight and mass
cause the action to "bounce" was, for me, an improvement in each case.. the "repair" is also
easily reversible unless you are also trying to slow the decay of plastic keys that show
signs of fissure cracks growing/beginning, and then not only under the tips, but a thin spread
of silicone under the entire key, i feel, helps their longevity

 

[zqd9853572002]

I don't know enough about material science to be able to answer this question. But I don't believe that plastic versus wood is really what makes the difference in the "feel". Plastic keys are *all* plastic, and the metal arm (lever) going to the pallet is glued in at the back of the key. (And that's also where it tends to break off or come unglued.) With wooden keys the metal arm actually also runs the entire length of the key, comes out at the back and then bends and continues towards the pallet. Typically near the front end of the key the metal becomes a "guide pin" that fits through a wooden comb to prevent sideways motion. So the wooden keys have a better balance of the amount of weight (metal) on both sides of the hinge. I'm sure the same could be done with all-plastic keys, but that isn't the common practice.
Note: I also play the digital piano a bit and also there the feel of digital piano keyboards with plastic keys versus those with wooden keys is very different. Needless to say I have a piano with wooden keys (and hammers).

"metal arm (lever) going to the pallet is glued in at the back of the key" vs "wooden keys have a better balance". This might be the difference. The weight of the plastic make it is light and don't need to press hard, but different person has dif idea about this feeling, but my feeling is still like to press some hard, just because I played the wooden one long time, lolol. But as you mentioned, "the same could be done with all-plastic keys" I guess it is not a technical problem, it may have some other reasons not doing this...have no idea..

 

[boxplayer4000]

I believe bringing piano keys into the discussion is confusing. Pianos and accordions are different (in case you hadn’t noticed). The piano relies on a hammer hitting a string (percussive) and, basically, the accordion doesn’t. The pianist depends, almost entirely, on the keyboard action to allow expression (volume, attack etc.) while the accordionist depends on bellows.

I understand from pianists that modern electronic keyboards are now weighted and balanced to such a high degree that the ‘feel’ is barely distinguishable from a ‘real’ piano.

In this thread plastic keys on accordions are receiving a bit of criticism. Many manufacturers use all-plastic keys and most give long lasting satisfaction and reliability. However, plastic keys along with many other components are subject to bad design (which has nothing to do with the fact they are plastic). One of those which, very infrequently in my experience, fall victim to bad design is Weltmeister. I have one in the offing where I used 2-part epoxy glue to try and make a repair to a couple of keys but I understand from the owner this has not worked. The option is repair or renew the part(s) and any suggestions would be welcome.

 

[JerryPH]

I understand from pianists that modern electronic keyboards are now weighted and balanced to such a high degree that the ‘feel’ is barely distinguishable from a ‘real’ piano.

My niece has a Yamaha electric piano and has been playing for about 10+ years now, she says that she feels no difference between her home piano and the real baby grand that is at her university. That's saying a lot!

That said, there are big differences between accordions in feel too. Even the few that I have at home (9) differ vastly... but none of mine are of that level of plastic content (except the FR-8X)... not sure I would want a plastic acoustic either, but my 8X is like on another planet in terms of feel and I am coping just fine with that.

It's all about what one needs and expectations.

 

[boxplayer4000]

JerryPH: Your niece's experience of the piano keyboard is widely shared. Yamaha and others seemed to have bridged the gap, so to speak, in their keyboard design. I've dabbled in the maintenance of electric keyboards over the years and I don't recall seeing any wood or other material used in the construction of the keyboards in, admittedly, the small range instruments I saw.
I wonder how many blind-folded accordionists could say for sure if the keys were plastic or not? Much of the 'feel' of an accordion (not all) lies in the reed quality, the state of tuning, bellows etc

 

[Scuromondo]

JerryPH: Your niece's experience of the piano keyboard is widely shared. Yamaha and others seemed to have bridged the gap, so to speak, in their keyboard design. I've dabbled in the maintenance of electric keyboards over the years and I don't recall seeing any wood or other material used in the construction of the keyboards in, admittedly, the small range instruments I saw.
I wonder how many blind-folded accordionists could say for sure if the keys were plastic or not? Much of the 'feel' of an accordion (not all) lies in the reed quality, the state of tuning, bellows etc

I think a good deal of the “feel” is not so much the material as it is the density and mass of it. If a plastic that has the mass and density of wood was used, I agree that it might be difficult (for amateurs such as myself at least) to distinguish between wood and plastic—but then again, if the mass is the same, then this would negate one of the main motivations for using plastic in the first place, which is to shed weight.

 

[boxplayer4000]

Scuromondo: Perhaps cost is a consideration as well.

 

[JerryPH]

I wonder how many blind-folded accordionists could say for sure if the keys were plastic or not? Much of the 'feel' of an accordion (not all) lies in the reed quality, the state of tuning, bellows etc

I'm kind of starting a personal project that involves playing 10 accordions repeatedly back to back over a period of time, and I never put much in the feel... that is until I had to play them back to back... lol

Move from one to another is like starting over for a few minutes and it is interesting at how fast we can acclimate... playing a full-sized Hohner and then to a child-sized Titano and then to a woman's sized keyboard... much more challenging than I first thought but in no instance could my fingers tell the difference between the materials of the keys, it was all about feel of the size, shape and depth, never about materials.

I, for sure, cannot tell the difference between ivory, wood or plastic keys under my fingers. But I can tell you if I like something or not almost immediately!

 

[zqd9853572002]

I'm kind of starting a personal project that involves playing 10 accordions repeatedly back to back over a period of time, and I never put much in the feel... that is until I had to play them back to back... lol

Move from one to another is like starting over for a few minutes and it is interesting at how fast we can acclimate... playing a full-sized Hohner and then to a child-sized Titano and then to a woman's sized keyboard... much more challenging than I first thought but in no instance could my fingers tell the difference between the materials of the keys, it was all about feel of the size, shape and depth, never about materials.

I, for sure, cannot tell the difference between ivory, wood or plastic keys under my fingers. But I can tell you if I like something or not almost immediately!

I am thinking if we cannot tell the difference of wood or plastic keys, then it must be the tuning or the key adjustment issue if I can tell it, if it is the problem, then the accordion need some repair or adjustment. Actually, you answered my another question that in my head

 

[boxplayer4000]

JerryPH: It's slightly off subject but there is a similarity between cars/automobiles and accordions in the sense that it take an incredibly short time when we drive a new vehicle to quickly change and accept the 'new' surroundings.
That's an interesting project where you play back-to-back accordions. These are the sorts of experiments which universities etc. receive large sums of money to research. I think you're probably underselling yourself!

 

[hais1273]

I had a Weltmeister Kristal for a short while, It sounded well enough to the listener, but I'm wondering now, if the "plasticy-ness" mentioned above is the reason I found playing it unsatisfactory in an non-specific sort of way.

 

[Pipemajor]

JerryPH: It's slightly off subject but there is a similarity between cars/automobiles and accordions in the sense that it take an incredibly short time when we drive a new vehicle to quickly change and accept the 'new' surroundings

Especially the first time you press the clutch pedal when you've just changed to an automatic car!!

 

[zqd9853572002]

I had a Weltmeister Kristal for a short while, It sounded well enough to the listener, but I'm wondering now, if the "plasticy-ness" mentioned above is the reason I found playing it unsatisfactory in an non-specific sort of way.

that's a good excuse, lololol

 

[Dingo40]

Especially the first time you press the clutch pedal when you've just changed to an automatic car!!

Been there, done that