Which glue works well for attaching plastic valves (ventile)?

[Ventura]

good point that this question was about PLASTiC valves

my advice is moot then, because i refuse categorically and
i am unanymous in my decidion to not never no how use those
crappy plastic flappy noisy valve impersonating plastic things

so the best glue is no glue at all as far as i am concerned

 

[Ikesaccordions]

Okay, stop complaining (everyone except Phil, whom I completely understand). The valves are vinyl. I use a rubber-like adhesive. You can use any adhesive. If you want to take it off without damaging it, you probably can't, so for my part I buy each size in 100 gram lots. Other people may do other things which is of course great.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

good point that this question was about PLASTiC valves

my advice is moot then, because i refuse categorically and
i am unanymous in my decidion to not never no how use those
crappy plastic flappy noisy valve impersonating plastic things

so the best glue is no glue at all as far as i am concerned

But Phil!
The manufacturer of these valves assures me that they are about as quiet as leather valves.
And Frank Romano once verbally did for me sound effects of both types, so maybe your leather ones don't make a noise, but are you really listening closely?

 

[Ventura]

the manufacturer

But Phil, the manufacturer of these valves, assures me that they are about as quiet as leather valves.

the manufacturer ? these cheep ventilli have a Father ?

they have a slapslap slappy noise when they hit the aluminum it seems to me

where they are used as boosters not so much

the faux leather type valves at least still have a soft side, i don't mnd them

but mainly there are still student level used accordions out there
worth their weight in usable leather valves i can salvage so no
plastic vinyl valves for me.. nope.. never.. no way

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

Okay, stop complaining (everyone except Phil, whom I completely understand). The valves are vinyl. I use a rubber-like adhesive. You can use any adhesive. If you want to take it off without damaging it, you probably can't, so for my part I buy each size in 100 gram lots. Other people may do other things which is of course great.

Me complain? Heaven forfend!

Since others have posted that plastic valves have wrinkled when certain glues have been used, clearly you CAN'T use any adhesive. Anyone who has any experience of glueing plastics knows how complex it can be.

What about Viledon valves (if I've got the name correct)?

 

[Ikesaccordions]

Me complain? Heaven forfend!

Since others have posted that plastic valves have wrinkled when certain glues have been used, clearly you CAN'T use any adhesive. Anyone who has any experience of glueing plastics knows how complex it can be.

What about Viledon valves (if I've got the name correct)?

Viledon if fake leather and turns hard and buzzes. My plastic valves never wrinkle. I only use leather on the first octave basson set and lower.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

The manufacturer said they are vinyl. As I said before, I use an adhesive. I buy each size in 100 gram lots, If I damage one, I pull another one.
An amusing incident occurred when the owner of Hohner threatened to sue, because people were selling the ventilli on eBay calling them Hohner valves. The Hohner distributor was selling them for $3.50/gram in the U.S., and lucky if you got the same size you ordered.

 

[Dingo40]

Here's something

Accordion Reed Valve Adhesive • for Vileda/Leather Valve

• Type: Special Adhesive for Vileda/Leather Valve • Quantity: 7,5 ml. • Delivery: 1 Bottle a. 7,5 ml.

www.stringsandboxes.de

 

[jollyrogeraccordions]

Here in the UK I use EvoStik Impact contact adhesive. I’ve also used solvent free Bostik (now not available any more). Also a UHU solvent free…but for some reason this doesn’t work well on old zinc plates. For single valve repairs I also sometimes use UHU, though these days it's just Impact. I do not use any type of PVA or superglue or epoxy.

 

[debra]

Interesting to see the many recommendations and experiences. But... you have to consider that in order to know whether a glue is really good you have to consider how well it still sticks after 20 years, 30, 40, etc...
I'm now working on a Bugari I bought in just over 23 years ago (and sold after about 8 years and now it's coming in for tuning) and I can definitely say that whatever glue they were using around the year 2000 is not sticking well any more after 23 years. I'm sure it was sticking well when it was new... (The wax has also seen the best years after 23 years...)
The old guy with over 50 years of experience who taught me the first bits of accordion repair swore by using shoe glue. It's the old repairers like him (and like JimD on this forum) who knows best what glue works well *in the long run*.

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

debra - of course, you're absolutely right. Plastics are a minefield. We are seeing degradation of many decades-old - and much younger - plastic items these days. One of the commoner failure mechanisms is the leaching out of plasticizers. It's really not safe to assume that a plastic item - of unknown composition - will last decades, or even be dimensionally stable in the long term. However, that's a bit off-topic.

Your mentor with half a century of experience presumably grew up with a type of shoe glue that probably no longer exists. It might even have been fish glue ("Seccotine' was one brand name, in UK). I'm going slowly crazy, looking at manufacturers' data-sheets for the many different types of 'shoe glue' available today. There are many chemistries employed, each with their own advantages, disadvantages and compatibility limitations. For example, toluene is a solvent used in many 'shoe glues'. PVC (= Vinyl) is attacked by toluene, so that should rule out toluene-based adhesives, unless you're sure your valves are not PVC.

At the moment, I think the 'best' adhesives, of the so-called 'shoe glue' type may be polyurethane-based. Bostik make a 'shoe glue' of that type, and claim that it is good for PVC and metal. Exactly what it's called in different countries, I haven't yet discovered. Loctite also offer hopeful-looking products. I was hoping to use 'Shoe Goo' (Eclectic Products, USA), but it's toluene-based.

The other problem is that it's difficult to find out what the plastic valves are made from. I'm pretty sure they're not all PVC.

It's a mess...

 

[debra]

...

At the moment, I think the 'best' adhesives, of the so-called 'shoe glue' type may be polyurethane-based. Bostik make a 'shoe glue' of that type, and claim that it is good for PVC and metal. Exactly what it's called in different countries, I haven't yet discovered. Loctite also offer hopeful-looking products. I was hoping to use 'Shoe Goo' (Eclectic Products, USA), but it's toluene-based.
...

Bostik is called Pattex here and it is the Pattex shoe glue that I'm using now. I used to use a shoe glue I got in bulk from a shoe maker (recommended by my "teacher"). You had to bring a jar and they filled it up from a large container so I have no idea what the composition was. But in any case it was not very convenient as I had to regularly mix in more thinner to keep it at a usable consistency.

 

[jollyrogeraccordions]

The makers don’t always get it right. I recently had to reglue about 30% of the valves on a 10 yr old Saltarelle PA. They were dropping off like confetti. On checking them all, some were still firmly attached and some came straight off with a tiny bit of pressure.

 

[kimric]

I have been using Pliobond for about 15 years since the glue I used to use was discontinued. It does not react wit the valves if a thin layer is applied. You do want to be carefull with the tiny single layer valves since I have sometimes have had problems with those deforming.
Add thinner to the glue if it bis a old bottle and gets thick since this seems to be the problem. On these I apply the thin layer to the valve, stick it to the plate ,peel it off and wipe any extra off the valve and stick it back on.

 

[nou]

I use Zucchini Extra Chiaro, it’s a shoe glue, that has increased viscosity compared to normal Pattex/Bostik and such, so stringing is easier to handle. This type of solvent glue has one great trait - it re-activated and sticks the most to itself, so you can use fresh dab of glue to clean the reed from the old glue without using any mechanical methods. The drawback is fast drying time, so you can’t do batch valving efficiently. Another glue that had been recommended by a fellow concertina maker is Copydex - a contact glue, that has quite long open time and hardens only to the same elastic state. It is great for batch valving, but I have no long-term experience with it yet.

 

[kimric]

"The manufacturer of these valves assures me that they are about as quiet as leather valves.
And Frank Romano once verbally did for me sound effects of both types, so maybe your leather ones don't make a noise, but are you really listening closely?"

I found that the plastic valves work great down to a certain pitch, but at that point you can get a subtle buzz. The correct thing at that point is to use the plastic backed leather valves. I carry chinese instruments for beginners and people who play on the street and places you don't want to take something nicer. The cheapest instruments use no leather valves at all, and the better ones use some on the lowest notes.
I will put the leather valves on the most obvious notes on the right since it makes a noticeable difference for the effort involved.

 

[Ventura]

my personal objection to plastic valves is mostly based on
general experience with plastic and mylar, that it has a very finite
number of times it will flex before it cracks then splits apart,
while leather holds on for dear life even when it gets 50/70 years old,
and looking for sharp little plastic things caught in bellows folda or against
the soft, flexible kidskin corners seems a risk not worth taking

but this is not based on much practical observation of mylar accordion
valves so probably not really an accurate comclusion, but i can't
get past it personally so keep dem plastic flappy things out of my 'cordeen !

 

[dak]

Me complain? Heaven forfend!

Since others have posted that plastic valves have wrinkled when certain glues have been used, clearly you CAN'T use any adhesive. Anyone who has any experience of glueing plastics knows how complex it can be.

What about Viledon valves (if I've got the name correct)?

The material is called "Vileda" and is originally a German substitute for window cleaner leathers ("Vileda" is pronounced the same as "wie Leder" which translates as "like leather").

 

[Ikesaccordions]

I was buying Original Super Glue Fix-All Adhesive which is a clear flexible rubber-like sustance. It wa available occasionally at Dollar Tree, so whenever thy had any I bought all of it.
The glue company never answered my emails.
To remove it, naphtha dissolves it. It does not react with the plastic.
As for the yellow synthetic leather, it turns into cardboard after a few years, so that on the larger reed plate apertures where plastic valves are less appropriate, I use real leather with steel boosters. The better factories use what looks like brown leather with plastic backing for the lower pitches. IDK if it's animal hide or fake. If you have a chemistry set, test it and let us know.

 

[debra]

...
As for the yellow synthetic leather, it turns into cardboard after a few years, so that on the larger reed plate apertures where plastic valves are less appropriate, I use real leather with steel boosters. The better factories use what looks like brown leather with plastic backing for the lower pitches. IDK if it's animal hide or fake. If you have a chemistry set, test it and let us know.

For lower notes nothing works as well as real leather valves with steel boosters. The brown "leather" with plastic backing is too stiff. old yellow stuff becomes like cardboard. New (faux?) leather valves with plastic boosters work reasonably well as long as the accordion is always stored in the playing position. Place it on its feet and valves that hang down (in cassotto or Winkelbaß) start sagging because the plastic boosters lose their strength.