Learning to record with new mics, and a GAME!

[JerryPH]

Hey friends,

I recently picked up some new microphones to help me get a little better recordings with acoustic accordions. When I made the Silent Night videos on my acoustic Free Bass accordions, the sound was ok... but nothing much more.

With these new mics, I hope to increase the quality of the recordings, and I have made a test or two, but still am not quite satisfied. Maybe I am too demanding, but I guess that now I am asking for a second (third or 20th) opinion, so here is the game...

From the sound of the video alone, first tell me if you like the sound on this recording or not. If yes, why. If no... why. Next, can you care to guess either what microphones I am using, or at least take a guess at what mics like this cost, in your interpretation of the quality of the sound. Forget the music, forget the mistakes, this time it is all about the sound quality of the recording and your opinions.

Ok.. here is the video:



Tell me what you think... and THANKS for your help!

 

[accordian]

dont know
much bout
mics but
your playing
is great.

 

[Geronimo]

If you want to hear something useful about the microphones, dont postprocess. Also leave more silence in: the color and strength of silence is a good clue. Theres obviously reverb added to the recording. The photograph looks like large diaphragm condensers, the noise floor (in the very few spots where you leave enough of an idea of silence) does not appear to be whispery quiet, but is also not bad.

Sound quality even with tremolo does not appear overly colored, I dont think its overly bright (but then I know Morinos with mellower cassotto). That makes a smaller membrane likely. Its likely either a pretty quiet 0.5 one, or a less spectacular 0.75 one. I dont think its a Røde or a cheap Chinese: either of those tend to be brighter colored. Unless you used EQ in postprocessing...

While its hard to say with the reverb added, there does not appear to be a lot of room captured (the reverb is pretty much exclusively artificial), so this is likely cardioid at medium distance (bass could use a bit more proximity effect): stereo separation is not really strong (again, this might be due to postprocessing).

Id recommend putting your mics more counterclockwise: for a true cassotto, the strongest effect is in front (while for my main instrument with its déclassement it is indeed to the side). Capturing the bass from a bit backwards is nice for side separation as the treble is then well-shielded. Try getting the bass mic close to the floor: that helps with the bass response even though it works better for omnidirectional rather than cardioid mics.

P.S.: come to think of it, the mics seem pretty precise (so we are not likely talking dirt cheap here), so you likely can well afford to get closer to the instrument for recording in order to get more presence and stereo separation and also a more defined bass.

 

[debra]

I agree with others that adding the reverb (while making the recording sound nicer) may make it harder to judge the quality of the mics themselves. I'm missing a bit of deep low in the bass, but it may partly be due to the Morino not pushing its lowest reeds well enough (which I have described earlier as a design flaw in how the pallets open).
The mics do capture the tremolo quite nicely which suggests to me that these mics are pretty decent.
For a real judgement we should get a taste of other mics used in otherwise identical settings.
A cheap microphone like the Aukey GD-G1 could probably do what we hear in this recording (but I have not used it myself). It can be had for under 40 euro a piece around here and it has the studio microphone looks (just like yours in fact).
So if I had to make a guess that would be it.

 

[jozz]

If I listen to this on my reference monitors I feel the sound source is too far away from the microphones cq. their gain was not high enough. So there is more ambient then I'd like.

So I'd say you can fine-tune this better.

Regarding the type of microphone, this could easily be a podcast condenser set for 10-15 bucks. FZONE or Neewer?

It's hard to tell from the picture.

 

[Glenn]

I liked the sound. Wasn’t too distant in my opinion. The keyboard mechanics were nicely discernible so it sounded intimate. No nothing about microphones but they didn’t sound too budget priced to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JerryPH]

Ok... each and everyone of you are seriously good! :lol:

The big prize, though, goes to Jozz... I mean, he even named the manufacturer (theyre Neewer NW-800s)! Of course, no one makes $10-15 condenser mics (that would be worth owning), though the ones that I picked were priced normally at $25-$35 each plus delivery... but when I found the amazon listing for $19.99 *delivered* to my home, I had to try them out, and to be honest, I am not entirely disappointed.

There is a definite learning curve in using condenser mics and suddenly my basement recording room is filled with all kinds of noises that appear on the recordings... the furnace, my NAS, my 3 computers, but what surprised me was the fact that I heard the mechanics of the bass machine in my one test and even my own breath as I played... that is something that I never experienced with other mics, and so I am going to need to do more playing before making a real video with this setup.

http://syner-g.no-ip.biz/mymusic/files/neewer.png>

Definitely not my last set of condenser mics, but until I save up a little spare money, these will do nice. I kind of bit in to my play money and bought a Sony 4K camcorder ($1100), so though the quality of my videos is going to improve a lot, the mics will have to wait a while. During that time I can research and make a decision on which ones I will purchase.

If no one minds, Id like to make a new thread later on and discuss options and ask for recommendations from you guys.

If someone is interested in reading the whole story, they can visit my blog site.

http://accordionmemories.com/mics/

This little project really helped me improve in a few areas (I made a few additional DIY toys during this project too!), and will continue to help me get better, but more importantly, I get to have a lot of fun during this entire process!

 

[Geronimo]

Ok... each and everyone of you are seriously good! :lol:

The big prize, though, goes to Jozz... I mean, he even named the manufacturer (theyre Neewer NW-800s)!

Well, so I was wrong with my not dirt-cheap guess. That would likely mean that my placement proposals will not help you a lot with getting more bass sound and better stereo separation: they were based on a guess of bad placement to start with. But then one should likely have heard less handling noise. It also makes it likely that some of the sound boxiness and the somewhat lacklustre representation of the cassotto sound are not entirely to blame on your instrument.

Id be interested about the innards of the mics: the Internet is quite unhelpful about specs. Theyll be electret condensers, sure. Less sure about the directivity of the capsules themselves: some tests claim bad noise supression from the back for some frequencies, but for an omnidirectional capsule (with directivity added by the housing) Id have expected better bass response unless the preamp circuitry is low quality, but then even given your almost complete absence of silence and the reverb added Id have expected to have heard more noise.

I need to get my ears checked.

 

[JerryPH]

Well, so I was wrong with my not dirt-cheap guess.

Well, to be fair:
1- I used some EQ
2-I used some reverb
3-I mixed the left and right channels a good 45% each side

I wasnt very honest, but then again, I wasnt trying to be... lol

That would likely mean that my placement proposals will not help you a lot with getting more bass sound and better stereo separation...

Actually, you might think that, but your suggestions are exactly everything that I am going to try out tomorrow evening and I have no doubts that there will be audible improvements!

Id be interested about the innards of the mics: the Internet is quite unhelpful about specs.

Oh, dont expect any surprises there... they are absolute garbage! If you go to my website in the link I have above, there is a video there that shows the innards of these mics. Tiny condensers and all plastic mic holder. The outside case and shock-mount is easily 95% of the value of the mic and the electronics are about 5%. You get your $20 worth and not much more.

Theyll be electret condensers, sure. Less sure about the directivity of the capsules themselves: some tests claim bad noise supression from the back for some frequencies

Ok, this I can tell you about since I have done this in real life several times... there is a good 30db drop in volume between the front and the sides/back, this is probably the most impressive trait, though probably any condenser mic has the same feature.

Id have expected better bass response unless the preamp circuitry is low quality, but then even given your almost complete absence of silence and the reverb added Id have expected to have heard more noise.

I did a full noise removal. Trust me, there was a SCARY amount of noise in the raw file.... so much that it is embarrassing to even post it here!

I need to get my ears checked.

No, I cheated outrageously and you said exactly what I needed to hear, as did the others. The sound was ok, but not much more and thanks to the input I have here, there is lots of room for improvement and for a first test, I didnt do too badly.

Based on the posts, ideas and suggestions (*all* from some pretty intelligent people!), I think I can pull more out of the mics and that will last me just fine until I get something a little more serious. A lot of my fun and pleasure comes from playing around like this, and everyones input was invaluable.

Again, thanks guys! :ch

 

[debra]

Ok... each and everyone of you are seriously good! :lol:

The big prize, though, goes to Jozz... I mean, he even named the manufacturer (theyre Neewer NW-800s)! ...

I wasnt far off with the Aukey GD-G1 as it is likely just another brand name for the same thing. (see attached photo). When you consider all the accessories these mics come with the $10 or 10 euro price for the actual mic was a good estimate by jozz. The Aukey comes with the desk mount and the plop shield that are not included in the Neewer. When you add them (on Amazon) they add up to the same price.

Im happily surprised by the audio quality you got from these mics (with some cheating). I have a pair of AKG C214 mics here (from my sister) that cost 10 times as much. I guess I now have to start making an audio recording with these and see if anyone thinks they sound better...

 

[hais1273]

I thought the clips sounded pretty good. My speakers on this computer aren't of the best quality or size, my head phones are of equal vintage and quality. I don't suppose the speakers are able to project too much of the "quality" and subltety of the sound, also I don't really know what to listen for, other than the obvious of course.

For everyday consumption by people like myself who know very little or nothing about mics, sound recording and so on, pretty good really.

So, keep up the technical discussion chaps, all this new information is useful for people like myself who know little about mics, sound and recording.!

 

[JerryPH]

Paul, the Aukey GD-G1 is an exact copy of the NW-700, and that is exactly the same mic as an NW-800 but with a different screen (so yes, it is just rebranded).

Funny that you mentioned them, but your AKG C214 mics are one of the mics that I am considering, along with the Rode NT1, Audio-Technica AT 4040 and others in the sub $500 range. I am even looking at pencil condensor mics too, there are some very interesting competitors there as well.

Hais1273: thanks! It was a bit of a surprise as to what happened and what has to be done to get good sound, yet the potential for even bigger quality increases are there, but these mics are definitely not the plug-n-play that something like a Shure SM58 are, but the potential for better captured audio quality is there. Condenser mics are indeed a different world from dynamic mics!

 

[Geronimo]

Id be interested about the innards of the mics: the Internet is quite unhelpful about specs.

Oh, dont expect any surprises there... they are absolute garbage! If you go to my website in the link I have above, there is a video there that shows the innards of these mics. Tiny condensers and all plastic mic holder. The outside case and shock-mount is easily 95% of the value of the mic and the electronics are about 5%. You get your $20 worth and not much more.

Tiny condensers explains why they arent fazed with tremolo: not enough membrane to go into partial vibration modes.

Theyll be electret condensers, sure. Less sure about the directivity of the capsules themselves: some tests claim bad noise supression from the back for some frequencies

Ok, this I can tell you about since I have done this in real life several times... there is a good 30db drop in volume between the front and the sides/back, this is probably the most impressive trait, though probably any condenser mic has the same feature.

Id have expected better bass response unless the preamp circuitry is low quality, but then even given your almost complete absence of silence and the reverb added Id have expected to have heard more noise.

I did a full noise removal. Trust me, there was a SCARY amount of noise in the raw file.... so much that it is embarrassing to even post it here!

Well, that explains then why I had more of a generic accordion vibe here than Hohner Morino. There is no such thing as a full noise removal with an accordion since an accordion has wide spectrum overtones. While this setup will not balk at tremolo registrations, youll have a hard time bringing that bass out (though that actually can be managed with EQ somewhat), and you wont get the sound of the cassotto coherently pictured while using the noise removal. And polyphonic voice leading will end in mud since you cannot preserve the fine-grained structure of overtones and their phase relations while simultaneously treating for noise. Of course another layer of mud in the form of reverb can mask some of that (it also shakes up the phase relations though not in the initial wave front) but wont help with the transparency.

In a nutshell: with this setup, youll have a hard time to bring across more than you can with the Roland. So I am a bit surprised that you invested so much in your camera right now: the pay grade features in that price class are anamorphic zoom (focus stays where it is when zooming instead of refocusing) and good light capture under less than favorable conditions, and neither are particularly relevant for the kind of one-person man cave shoots you do. Hope you use the camera for other purposes as well: its likely to serve well with a human at its controls. Probably even has better mics than your externals, though of course the internals will not give you sensible stereo separation.

 

[Geronimo]

Paul, the Aukey GD-G1 is an exact copy of the NW-700, and that is exactly the same mic as an NW-800 but with a different screen (so yes, it is just rebranded).

Funny that you mentioned them, but your AKG C214 mics are one of the mics that I am considering, along with the Rode NT1, Audio-Technica AT 4040 and others in the sub $500 range. I am even looking at pencil condensor mics too, there are some very interesting competitors there as well.

Well, let me save you some expense: dont spring for a large diaphragm condenser unless you plan capturing whole concerts from a distance. You dont need their low noise floor for close-captioning something as loud as an accordion, and tremolo makes their rendition fall apart, at least in the affordable price class (I have no data for the unaffordable class, feel free to send me a pair of Neumanns or Schoeps). I have a pair of NT1A. They are great for capturing tango and stuff without tremolo, and they are still appropriate when you use tremolo in some piece only in the context of a screaming ffff. But something like an elegant tremolo wont make it through a large diaphragm.

Better keep eyeing the pencil condensers. A plus if they have exchangeable capsules: omnidirectionals tend to be most faithful but require close positioning in order not to capture too much room. Also they arent as good for cutting sounds like when going for a bandonion character. Close positioning can be tricky with the (moving) bass side, but you can put them right on the floor (given a hard floor) where they only get to see half the room and are in a pressure node for the bass notes. The Lineaudio OM1 is an omnidirectional which Id like to try some day: it seems to be at a good price point and gets good reviews. Im mostly working with Oktavas myself these days. Which are ok but no longer in the steal for the money category they once were.

 

[jozz]

Ok... each and everyone of you are seriously good! :lol:

The big prize, though, goes to Jozz... I mean, he even named the manufacturer (theyre Neewer NW-800s)!

Well the way you asked it made me draw to the budget ones but they are very popular now and sell under all kinds of brand names. Its like with wine, if your presentation is allright, even the pros have difficulty telling which is which...

If youre considering pencil condensers for home Id say go for it. Which is what I would use if I was not into vintage dynamics from the 60s/70s.

On stage most if not all engineers will put a pencil in front of you if you are 2-3 guys, or replace it with an SM57.

 

[debra]

I guess I should also do a test of the AKG C214 mics against the Sennheiser 421 dynamic mics I have laying around (but it's not exactly a fair comparison as the 421 mics are maybe 30 years old...).

 

[jozz]

I do everything with my md21, which is the omni version of the 421...but i guess the c214's will make a more subtle job of it

 

[JerryPH]

I guess I should also do a test of the AKG C214 mics against the Sennheiser 421 dynamic mics I have laying around (but its not exactly a fair comparison as the 421 mics are maybe 30 years old...).

Id still enjoy appreciate the sound and differences. In comparison, my Silent Night videos are done on a Shure SM58 clone. I must have paid almost $100 for that thing back in the early-to-mid 80s. Still works as good as new.

 

[Geronimo]

Well, let me save you some expense: dont spring for a large diaphragm condenser unless you plan capturing whole concerts from a distance. You dont need their low noise floor for close-captioning something as loud as an accordion, and tremolo makes their rendition fall apart, at least in the affordable price class (I have no data for the unaffordable class, feel free to send me a pair of Neumanns or Schoeps). I have a pair of NT1A. They are great for capturing tango and stuff without tremolo, and they are still appropriate when you use tremolo in some piece only in the context of a screaming ffff. But something like an elegant tremolo wont make it through a large diaphragm.

[...]

Im mostly working with Oktavas (MK-012 small diaphragm condensers) myself these days. Which are ok but no longer in the steal for the money category they once were.

Here is a shootout of the Røde NT-1A against the omnidirectional capsules of the Oktava MK-012:
[media]

 

[JerryPH]

Here is a shootout of the Røde NT-1A against the omnidirectional capsules of the Oktava MK-012:
[media]

Yup, saw a similar one about 2 weeks ago, David. I just dont want/need an omnidirectional... I have enough noise to deal with in the limited directions it picks up now. If anything, even a supercardiod might work better for me, or as mentioned the smaller diaphram capsules, as they also excel at that.

I did some quick tests tonight on an ambient noise level meter app I had on my smartphone. Closet door open, I get 65db of noise from the furnace. Furnace turned off, 25db of noise. Turn off the NAS... 20db noise. that would be near ideal and about the best my conditions permit (near perfect silence).

However, I cannot leave the furnace off when its -20C, so I tested a compromise solution... closet door closed and placing my backdrop with 3 layers of muslin on it between the furnace and the mics drops ambient noise from 65db to around 35-42 db. That is still at a level that if I do noise reduction, could affect the sound quality, but until I test it, I wont know how much. A project for this weekend, perhaps.

In the meantime, this testing with these little El Cheapo condensers and playing/learning is fun and once I hit a reasonable combination with these mics I will make another recording.