learning treble and bass tune technique

[smdc66]

obviously its better to learn both the treble melody and bass line as it makes the tune complete

i was wondering about the best way to do this

i figured for me its better to learn the melody very well and then the bass line

then try to put together

can anyone see a flaw in this or have a different way that works well for them

:ugeek:

 

[pentaprism]

That's the way. It's the same way I learn on the piano.

The idea is to develop muscle memory. It's easier to do so one hand at a time.

Can't do that when learning on the guitar, however

 

[george garside]

whjilst there is a lot to be said for getting the hang of the treble before going anywhere near the bass it can result in a mental block on the bass that is difficult to overcome. It can therefore make sense to get in early using the simple 3 chord trick on the bass rather than trying to play bass ''as written'' Doing this not only greatly simplifies the bass and gets both hands operating independently at an early stage from which it is much easier to progress to complicated bass playing (if so desired)

for the 3 chord trick you only need to use 3 diagonal rows of bass per key. eg in C use C bass & C major chord, Fbass & maj chord ( the diagonal below C) and G bass & maj chord ( the diagonal above C) do exactly the same for any other key starting on the diagonal of the keyote and using the one above and the one below.

george

 

[Corinto]

It can result in a mental block on the bass that is difficult to overcome.
It can therefore make sense to get in early using the simple 3 chord trick on the bass rather than trying to play bass ''as written''.
Doing this not only greatly simplifies the bass and gets both hands operating independently at an early stage from which it is much easier to progress to complicated bass playing (if so desired).

I agree, but YMMV of course.
My experience as a "newbie" is that it is far easier for me to start with both hands at the same time, very very very slowly, because this progresses faster than trying to combine both hands after learning them separately which I have not been able to do successfully until I re-start very very slowly.
Of course every mind works differently, but that's what works for me.

 

[Buttons]

As very much a learner I do treble first then bass.....after a lot of practise on the right hand. As I understand this is the norm. George raises an interesting point, one which I suspect may be a problem for me. The more treble the harder the start on the Bass. Not entirely correct but there is a disproportionate relationship which I am going to try out tomorow. Need to think about this very carefully. Best wishes and thank you to George. (I am still working on his recent assistance and have yet to respond more fully).

I see Corinto has commented which reinforces Georges views......most interesting.

 

[donn]

Maybe it would help to break the tune into sections vertically instead of horizontally, if you will. Learn a part of it, and when it becomes manageable you can move on to the next.

The details may vary from one individual to the next. I personally would bring the chords in at the earliest convenient moment, and hopefully the right chords. I have a weakness for revising chords, and I pay for it with a degree of confusion that frequently trips me up - the weakest spots in my performance seem to coincide with places where I've changed my mind on the chords.

 

[jarvo]

I tend to go with donn's view....to be honest it is my biggest weakness , l tend to try the whole thing straight off ....and then when I get wound up with myself I capitulate and go back to sitting in a corner sulking....and then I try the Johnny Cash song method ..."one piece at a time"....whether horizontal or vertical is up to the individual and what works for them...Still can't get my hands round that beggar Sweet Jenny Jones though ...I suspect she ain't all that sweet really.

 

[Soulsaver]

Good interesting post...

 

[Happy girl]

My tendency is to practice keyboard & bass separately, but not too much because I find that playing both sides together helps with timing.

When a new treble piece seems beyond my reading capabilities & where practice needs a more intensive approach I go to the keyboard. This works well for me because I can put on headphones & fire away in the knowledge that all the bum notes are only audible to my ears!

I have often wondered if this method is good, but, on reflection it is a lot more comfortable for me to practice a difficult treble piece with an instrument in front of me instead of having one strapped to my chest……. I also don’t have any concerns with bellow control at this stage which is a bonus!

Going to the keyboard first works for me, but it will be very interesting to hear other views about this method of learning.

 

[knobby]

l tend to try the whole thing straight off ....and then when I get wound up with myself I capitulate and go back to sitting in a corner sulking.....

Thats me to a tee - did it again last night :evil:

 

[Glenn]

In my experience it doesn't hurt to run through the right hand to get an idea of the tune and the expected rhythm etc.
On the other hand (pun intended ), this shouldn't be the goal of learning the right hand to perfection. It is just an orientation.
The same can be done for the left hand. Just look a the chords and the expected rhythm and make a note of the "bad" jumps and problem areas.
That should then be enough. Now it's time to put them together.
If as you progress you find certain right or left hand passages that cause problems then stop and slow down and repeat.
My accordion teacher sometimes suggests playing the bass part on the right hand just to make sure you are hitting the right notes.
I don't find it very useful because I hear the mistakes pretty acutely but for some of her students in the past it was a great help, especially if departing from the normal, already learnt bass patterns.

 

[jarvo]

l tend to try the whole thing straight off ....and then when I get wound up with myself I capitulate and go back to sitting in a corner sulking.....

Thats me to a tee - did it again last night :evil:[/quote]


Well dont....and thats what In always tell myself after ...!!

 

[Anyanka]

I usually play the right hand through a couple of times on its own and then try out the chords. I usually start with simple-ish chords and refine later, often by keeping the chord but playing it over a different bass note. Adding in the chords too late is frustrating for me, as it brings the right hand standard right down again!

 

[george garside]

I agree with Anyanka about starting with 'simple-ish' chords which was why I suggested the 3 chord trick for much the same reasons. Even resting fingers 432 on eg major chord buttons FCG ( for key C) CGD ( for key G) etc etc can be a handy 'way in' Choose a slow -ish tune eg air , waltz, slow march etc and simply start off with the chord of the key which will be the middle of the 3 that the fingers are resting on. When that doesn't sound right try the one above or below - keeping the fingers on the aforementioned 3 chord buttons throughout the tune.

If playing from the dots totally ignore any written bass and stick with the 3 buttons - at least ;you will be doing something with the bass which is much better than doing nothing!

I think a lot of early bass problems result from trying to play 'as writ' bass which can be quite complicated before you can play anything on the bass.

It is also worth remembering that on some sheet music the 'chords' written are intended for guitar and not box - some of them may be impossible to play on stradella and others may be bloody difficult. Many are not even 'correct' bass being just one persons 'arrangement' possibly of a tune that was written for a treble only instrument. Those are situations were mastery of busking in the bass can be extremely advantageous!

george

 

[knobby]

Well dont....and thats what In always tell myself after ...!!

Easier said than done - another strop tonight after 20 minutes. Maybe I shouldve tried learning the triangle!

 

[Soulsaver]

I find you go can round in circles with the triangle..

 

[jarvo]

I find you go can round in circles with the triangle..

...and which one of those three sides do you hit ....unless of course youre screaming FIRE, FIRE, FIRE. ...in which case you put the striker in the middle and hit all three !! :b

 

[PaulS]

The idea is to develop muscle memory. Its easier to do so one hand at a time.

Muscle memory, yes same as glass blowing thats how I do it.

 

[Glenn]

Muscle memory with hands alone tends to miss an important aspect of the coordination memory (I just made that one up).
One hand at a time is like learning to juggle with one ball at a time. It works well until you put all balls together.

 

[dunlustin]

A very experienced flying instructor once said to me "Don't you find visual memory really important when remembering frequencies?"
My blank stare told him I didn't. I have always remembered his words - he saw a picture of the numbers "in the air."
Never be surprised how somebody else learns.
Often one method is chosen to suit the tutor (or the Board etc...) Some people succeed but that tells you nothing about those who fail.
As long as you get the right number of (professional) cellists in the available time it doesn't matter. Who cares if some fall by the wayside?
It matters a lot for the rest of us.
Do I think I have an answer - definitely not.