Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Here's how!
Lowering reed frequency from 442 to 440...?🤔
- Thread starter Dingo40
- Start date
Very laborious process as this video demonstrates. This careful tuning down can really only be done when the reeds are first removed from the reed block (and cleaned from any wax that might end up where you don't want it). It also gets harder with high-pitch notes because everything gets smaller and smaller... The video only shows a few large reeds.
petch
Well-known member
And this is why I'll just keep mine the way it came to me at 442
Not worth the cost when I don't need to be tuned to 440
Not worth the cost when I don't need to be tuned to 440
Very true. It's only worth it when you want to join an accordion group where everyone has their accordions tuned to 440 and playing together would make you stand out like a sore thumb...
That said an accordion that hasn't been tuned for over a decade can easily go off by 4 cents which (at A4) is 1Hz, so I'm sometimes willing to do a 441 to 440 conversion. I have done just one 442 to 440 conversion and that was on a 2 voice 26 key accordion, so not all that much work.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
and the setup.. hey this fella has a nice comfy homemade
tuning platform, but still time consuming
i am again reminded (mental comparison) of how the FisItalia
tuning station automatically via computer controlled sensors
slides the sides and bottom of the platen to hold the reed then the air hits
and the computer voice audibles the result and the Human
just lifts the reed-tongue a hair so the diamond belt can kiss it
it is a quick and precise process
tuning platform, but still time consuming
i am again reminded (mental comparison) of how the FisItalia
tuning station automatically via computer controlled sensors
slides the sides and bottom of the platen to hold the reed then the air hits
and the computer voice audibles the result and the Human
just lifts the reed-tongue a hair so the diamond belt can kiss it
it is a quick and precise process
I am almost done overhauling the bass side on my accordiola, including tuning it down from 441 to 440.
Imho, as long as it's a complete overhaul job (i.e. reeds out of blocks & fully cleaned), even 444 to 440 is "easy". You just need to work them with abrasives across the entire tongue width. Fine-tuning the reeds after they've been waxed into the blocks is a much more laborious process.
I guess that if you're trying to scratch 442 into 440 while the reeds are waxed in, that would be a tough job.
Imho, as long as it's a complete overhaul job (i.e. reeds out of blocks & fully cleaned), even 444 to 440 is "easy". You just need to work them with abrasives across the entire tongue width. Fine-tuning the reeds after they've been waxed into the blocks is a much more laborious process.
I guess that if you're trying to scratch 442 into 440 while the reeds are waxed in, that would be a tough job.
snavoyosky
Member
The caption reads "just intonation". Surely he's not using that temperament on a non-pitched instrument. I went to his site but that was the only indication of this work process. I wonder why he was coarse tuning with the skins on. I noticed how this process of his reduced the tongue edges due to that height plus the shim thickness. Working with a provino makes this work far more accurate......after a complete reed wash in the chemical......begin coarse file tuning bare reed on a provino, then coarse file tuning with applied skins (and springs)....and then comes the waxed connection to its clean reed block......ready for fine tuning on a tuning table and finally within the instrument to make sure.....which normally requires a mere scratch or two or none at all if the previous work is accomplished properly.
But I found that film interesting regarding the device which only allowed a one hole air pressure, the applied skin, and the mention of just intonation. Thanks for posting it.
But I found that film interesting regarding the device which only allowed a one hole air pressure, the applied skin, and the mention of just intonation. Thanks for posting it.
For the unititated, please, what is the "provino"?
(I have a lot to learn)
(I have a lot to learn)
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
More on the provino:
www.intondo.com
Tuning table for accordions
Tuning table for musical instrument from the turn of the century, used for tuning accordions, a fascinating object due to its rarity and particularity it is called in slang "provino" and was used for the first tuning of accordion voices. For collectors and connoisseurs. Measurements 99 x 61.5 x...
Thanks, mate.
If I get the gist of that conversation it means a bellows driven tuning table.
Illustrations and/or photos might assist me, as I have seen several variations on that them posted all over the place.
Good one, Dingo - I'm in the process of making something similar myself where I can test reeds plates individually, on their mounting blocks, or fully mounted in the accordion 'halves'.More on the provino:
Tuning table for accordions
Tuning table for musical instrument from the turn of the century, used for tuning accordions, a fascinating object due to its rarity and particularity it is called in slang "provino" and was used for the first tuning of accordion voices. For collectors and connoisseurs. Measurements 99 x 61.5 x...
Starting point? An old school desk from a yard sale
Just for the fun of it, really, but it is a slow process 'cos of the time delays created by waiting for the arthritic joint pains to subside and for the myriad of other distractions to be shoved aside
(This getting old ain't for whimps nor cissies)
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
I find a dose of 600 mg of plain old aspirin
( with water) helps me for two or three days .
Then it's often good enough for some weeks.
Sometimes two doses in one day (rarely).
Ventura
Been here for ages!
for me, i think of the Provino in context with the times
remembering how many accordions the factories produced..
there were no cell phones or tuning apps..
there was the Conn Strobotuner.. can you imagine if they
had only that tool to use for tuning, they would STILL be working on
finishing the 1958 model run
so they did have mathematics, and an understanding of Pitch
and the rise of the Moon and the curvature of the Earth..
but how many individuals working in an accordion Factory had
THAT level of understanding and skill
i am sure our good Debra could fully explain the Math and methods
of "counting" a Master Builder would employ to set up a Tuning Table
or Provino, and it would have been a critically important tool and
focal point of every accordion Factory for sure..
consider that you can learn to tune a Piano from a single tuning fork
if you learn the Math and methods of counting beats
but it would, as i said, take forever to tune all the accordion reeds that way,
but with a full Provino of "perfectly" tuned reeds to guide them, workers far less
skilled than the Master of the Factory would be able to learn how
to use it and use it well and quickly as long as their skill at reedworking
was decent.. They would simply compare the reed they were working on
with the sound of the same pitched reed in the Provino by beat by ear
there is a provino at the museum in Castlefidardo, and there are others
that were salvaged from closed factories by individuals who are now
part of the cottage industry of "work at home" specialists who do
reedwork and waxing by the job for the smaller modern "factories"
or boutique accordion brands
and then there is that incredible, amazing modern Digitally controlled "Provino" like
tuning machine i have described in past discussions, located in the Fisitalia factory
remembering how many accordions the factories produced..
there were no cell phones or tuning apps..
there was the Conn Strobotuner.. can you imagine if they
had only that tool to use for tuning, they would STILL be working on
finishing the 1958 model run
so they did have mathematics, and an understanding of Pitch
and the rise of the Moon and the curvature of the Earth..
but how many individuals working in an accordion Factory had
THAT level of understanding and skill
i am sure our good Debra could fully explain the Math and methods
of "counting" a Master Builder would employ to set up a Tuning Table
or Provino, and it would have been a critically important tool and
focal point of every accordion Factory for sure..
consider that you can learn to tune a Piano from a single tuning fork
if you learn the Math and methods of counting beats
but it would, as i said, take forever to tune all the accordion reeds that way,
but with a full Provino of "perfectly" tuned reeds to guide them, workers far less
skilled than the Master of the Factory would be able to learn how
to use it and use it well and quickly as long as their skill at reedworking
was decent.. They would simply compare the reed they were working on
with the sound of the same pitched reed in the Provino by beat by ear
there is a provino at the museum in Castlefidardo, and there are others
that were salvaged from closed factories by individuals who are now
part of the cottage industry of "work at home" specialists who do
reedwork and waxing by the job for the smaller modern "factories"
or boutique accordion brands
and then there is that incredible, amazing modern Digitally controlled "Provino" like
tuning machine i have described in past discussions, located in the Fisitalia factory
snavoyosky
Member
When the accordion craze occurred in ca.1948 by the Horace Heidt Talent radio show displaying Dick Contino, it caused the accordion to become mass produced....reeds and all. Prior to that time all reeds were handmade be they for professional, semi-professional, or student accordion lines. Hold that thought in your mind that all reeds were handmade. This meant it was a process distinguished by the individual handmaking those reeds.....his skills.....the materials he used......the design he made.....
So asking the store for an accordion with handmade reeds might gain you a student line accordion with handmade reeds and quite unlike your desire....but you got it.
I'm a real old dude at 88 years and I've witnessed much in those 88 years beginning when I was 4 and given a grey pearl Venturi & Figli 12 bass accordion that at the time cost $25 with that cost shared 50/50 between my father and maternal uncle. So I have much to say what went on back then and forward. I'm a believer that going back in time will place one closer to the truth...so I search for old books etc. to enlighten me.
I have about 6 provinos and they came from factories were I was associated through my time of education. I have a provino from the following factories:
Excelsior
Giulietti
International
Universal
Zoppi
and one for diatonic reeds.
These are all for coarse tuning and each has it's own master set of reeds.
Of course I have packages of all brass new master sets. The brass gives a higher quality of vibration.
Ventura stated the master at the factory and there were always two........the foreman for the accordion and the master tuner for the reeds. Each morning the master tuner went to each and every provino and established the tuning correctness of that provinos' master set.
So this was the tuning room......where, if you entered that room, the tuners would quit working. Secrets? maybe...... but moreso because of vibration interference in the room. I saw that problem with them and decided to tune with radio on whereby I learned to focus.
Since most of you are still "youngsters".......I'm considering taking you back in time to when the accordion was designed and developed and surprisingly.......by whom (twofold). You'll understand why I abhor the mutilation of reeds when you understand what went into it's birth. It will explain why these older handmade reeds produced higher quality and tighter compression because of its design over the machine reeds of today.
For those having a Morbidoni pro model....take a look at its reeds and let me know if you see anything different. For those having Guidobaldi reeds.......tell me what you see and experience.
So asking the store for an accordion with handmade reeds might gain you a student line accordion with handmade reeds and quite unlike your desire....but you got it.
I'm a real old dude at 88 years and I've witnessed much in those 88 years beginning when I was 4 and given a grey pearl Venturi & Figli 12 bass accordion that at the time cost $25 with that cost shared 50/50 between my father and maternal uncle. So I have much to say what went on back then and forward. I'm a believer that going back in time will place one closer to the truth...so I search for old books etc. to enlighten me.
I have about 6 provinos and they came from factories were I was associated through my time of education. I have a provino from the following factories:
Excelsior
Giulietti
International
Universal
Zoppi
and one for diatonic reeds.
These are all for coarse tuning and each has it's own master set of reeds.
Of course I have packages of all brass new master sets. The brass gives a higher quality of vibration.
Ventura stated the master at the factory and there were always two........the foreman for the accordion and the master tuner for the reeds. Each morning the master tuner went to each and every provino and established the tuning correctness of that provinos' master set.
So this was the tuning room......where, if you entered that room, the tuners would quit working. Secrets? maybe...... but moreso because of vibration interference in the room. I saw that problem with them and decided to tune with radio on whereby I learned to focus.
Since most of you are still "youngsters".......I'm considering taking you back in time to when the accordion was designed and developed and surprisingly.......by whom (twofold). You'll understand why I abhor the mutilation of reeds when you understand what went into it's birth. It will explain why these older handmade reeds produced higher quality and tighter compression because of its design over the machine reeds of today.
For those having a Morbidoni pro model....take a look at its reeds and let me know if you see anything different. For those having Guidobaldi reeds.......tell me what you see and experience.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
1948 as a tipping point year regarding Reeds in general
wish i had known that ! i just gave away a cute Bomar with
the split Stradella type mechanism to someone at the club that
wanted something to learn repair on.. it looked late 40's
with old style body and palm shift and waterfall keys
LoL
maybe you know some other key periods also.. like about when
did the industry shift from Waterfall keys to the modern rounded keytops over wood ?
dating accordions is difficult
wish i had known that ! i just gave away a cute Bomar with
the split Stradella type mechanism to someone at the club that
wanted something to learn repair on.. it looked late 40's
with old style body and palm shift and waterfall keys
LoL
maybe you know some other key periods also.. like about when
did the industry shift from Waterfall keys to the modern rounded keytops over wood ?
dating accordions is difficult
snavoyosky
Member
Dingo40, you certainly surprised me with your above post by using something I presented to the RMMS 17 years ago....describing the Provino. I read that intently like I never saw it before and then realized it was me doing the description...17 years ago. If only I was that articulate nowadays.
Thanks for the surprise and for this group to understand its importance. Thank you again for your help.
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
The internet never forgets 
And, welcome to the forum!
And, welcome to the forum!
snavoyosky, please!
As a 'newbie' to this squeezy business ( as well as to the world of music-making in general ) and all of 7 years your junior I need to be guided gently through your brilliant memories.
So, what in heavens name are you referring to with "RMMS"?
Surely not the Remote Management & Maintainance Service with which I was once familiar
As a 'newbie' to this squeezy business ( as well as to the world of music-making in general ) and all of 7 years your junior I need to be guided gently through your brilliant memories.
So, what in heavens name are you referring to with "RMMS"?
Surely not the Remote Management & Maintainance Service with which I was once familiar
Exquisite recollections from someone with a rich experience in the accordion construction tradition.
The craftsmen of the 1950's Ferrari's, Lamboghinis et al were superbly skilled and devoted hand crafting machinists creating mechanical works of art, but pound for pound, cubic inch for cubic inch, the mass produced engine with modern materials on a Honda Civic is simply a better construct. Not a work of art perhaps, but surely a better engine.
That's not to say that I don't have a very high regard for craftmanship- I play a 1898 Bonneville flute- exquisitely handmade. But I also don't doubt that the fitment of the mechanism in any other than student (and many of them) flute is simply superior. The ineffable pleasure in blowing the Bonneville adds something of value to it that no amount of technology can match for the player- but it doesn't make it a better flute.
Accordions are at heart pretty simple beasts- as are flutes. I surely take joy in playing the 160 bass 1929 Excelsior- and because the basic pieces of the accordion industry are on the thin edge of commercial survival there really isn't the same impetus for improvement that exists in the Honds Civic's motor. But tuning, manufacturing reeds, et al are slowly and painfully being dragged into the light of new techniques and possibilites which just weren't there a century ago.
Nobody doubts but that it's quite possible to mass manufacture garbage- though a causal review of the full spectrum of "student accordions" over the ages reveals that as with movies- "Just because it's in black and white and prior to 1950 doesn't mean it's a masterpiece".
The Provino properly employed was a master construct for achieveing consistent excellence. There may be better- or at least other- paths to approach Parnassum today. And- regrettably- for many "the perfect is the enemy of the good enough."
Apologies for what are almost certainly a cornucopia of typos and grammatic howlers in the above.
Best wishes and welcome-
Henry
I, regrettably, do not believe that musical instrument repair and construction are "flies preserved in amber", forever frozen into one proper way of doing things. Your methods as described will surely result in excellence- but tha passage of time and new technology (the "T" word; shame on me) mean that there are other mehods which are equally or better suited.
The craftsmen of the 1950's Ferrari's, Lamboghinis et al were superbly skilled and devoted hand crafting machinists creating mechanical works of art, but pound for pound, cubic inch for cubic inch, the mass produced engine with modern materials on a Honda Civic is simply a better construct. Not a work of art perhaps, but surely a better engine.
That's not to say that I don't have a very high regard for craftmanship- I play a 1898 Bonneville flute- exquisitely handmade. But I also don't doubt that the fitment of the mechanism in any other than student (and many of them) flute is simply superior. The ineffable pleasure in blowing the Bonneville adds something of value to it that no amount of technology can match for the player- but it doesn't make it a better flute.
Accordions are at heart pretty simple beasts- as are flutes. I surely take joy in playing the 160 bass 1929 Excelsior- and because the basic pieces of the accordion industry are on the thin edge of commercial survival there really isn't the same impetus for improvement that exists in the Honds Civic's motor. But tuning, manufacturing reeds, et al are slowly and painfully being dragged into the light of new techniques and possibilites which just weren't there a century ago.
Nobody doubts but that it's quite possible to mass manufacture garbage- though a causal review of the full spectrum of "student accordions" over the ages reveals that as with movies- "Just because it's in black and white and prior to 1950 doesn't mean it's a masterpiece".
The Provino properly employed was a master construct for achieveing consistent excellence. There may be better- or at least other- paths to approach Parnassum today. And- regrettably- for many "the perfect is the enemy of the good enough."
Apologies for what are almost certainly a cornucopia of typos and grammatic howlers in the above.
Best wishes and welcome-
Henry
