Lowering reed frequency from 442 to 440...?🤔

[Ventura]

[QUOTE="Ffingers,
"RMMS"?

rec.music.makers.squeezebox
this was/is the callsign for the old newsgroup
that existed/exists in the mail spinner fidonet pre-internet
chat groups that went around the world every night

it is still maintained as a legacy active group by Google groups,
which absorbed the older system as a courtesy

 

[snavoyosky]

Exquisite recollections from someone with a rich experience in the accordion construction tradition.

I, regrettably, do not believe that musical instrument repair and construction are "flies preserved in amber", forever frozen into one proper way of doing things. Your methods as described will surely result in excellence- but tha passage of time and new technology (the "T" word; shame on me) mean that there are other mehods which are equally or better suited.

The craftsmen of the 1950's Ferrari's, Lamboghinis et al were superbly skilled and devoted hand crafting machinists creating mechanical works of art, but pound for pound, cubic inch for cubic inch, the mass produced engine with modern materials on a Honda Civic is simply a better construct. Not a work of art perhaps, but surely a better engine.

That's not to say that I don't have a very high regard for craftmanship- I play a 1898 Bonneville flute- exquisitely handmade. But I also don't doubt that the fitment of the mechanism in any other than student (and many of them) flute is simply superior. The ineffable pleasure in blowing the Bonneville adds something of value to it that no amount of technology can match for the player- but it doesn't make it a better flute.

Accordions are at heart pretty simple beasts- as are flutes. I surely take joy in playing the 160 bass 1929 Excelsior- and because the basic pieces of the accordion industry are on the thin edge of commercial survival there really isn't the same impetus for improvement that exists in the Honds Civic's motor. But tuning, manufacturing reeds, et al are slowly and painfully being dragged into the light of new techniques and possibilites which just weren't there a century ago.

Nobody doubts but that it's quite possible to mass manufacture garbage- though a causal review of the full spectrum of "student accordions" over the ages reveals that as with movies- "Just because it's in black and white and prior to 1950 doesn't mean it's a masterpiece".

The Provino properly employed was a master construct for achieveing consistent excellence. There may be better- or at least other- paths to approach Parnassum today. And- regrettably- for many "the perfect is the enemy of the good enough."

Apologies for what are almost certainly a cornucopia of typos and grammatic howlers in the above.

Best wishes and welcome-
Henry

I'm sorry that you misconstrued that the intent and purpose of that message was to express the forthcoming history of the accordion steel reed birth and technology design and development to present times which others have related differently. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Walker]

I'm a real old dude at 88 years and I've witnessed much in those 88 years beginning when I was 4 and given a grey pearl Venturi & Figli 12 bass accordion that at the time cost $25 with that cost shared 50/50 between my father and maternal uncle. So I have much to say what went on back then and forward. I'm a believer that going back in time will place one closer to the truth...so I search for old books etc. to enlighten me.
I have about 6 provinos and they came from factories were I was associated through my time of education. I have a provino from the following factories:
Excelsior
Giulietti
International
Universal
Zoppi
and one for diatonic reeds.

These are all for coarse tuning and each has it's own master set of reeds.
Of course I have packages of all brass new master sets. The brass gives a higher quality of vibration.

Ventura stated the master at the factory and there were always two........the foreman for the accordion and the master tuner for the reeds. Each morning the master tuner went to each and every provino and established the tuning correctness of that provinos' master set.

Thanks @snavoyosky, it's lovely to read these little gems of insight. Hearing your words makes me almost yearn for something that I have never known (so have no right to miss it). But, I too am a believer that, as you say "going back in time will place one closer to the truth", or at least something special...

I sometimes think, if only I go back to an earlier time and speak to Mr Gola and ask... please can you make me a piano accordion with 41 keys, 120 basses with double cassotto, a model Gola 414 will be perfect, but can you add 3 octaves Quint free bass for me too? What he might have produced would leave me speechless.

But alas the days of Mr Gola, and the glories of Scandalli, Excelsior, Victoria etc. are faded memories, relived still in the beautiful tones of old accordions that Galliano or Van Damme and many other accordionists have played.

It is a pleasure listening to your words and I hope you continue to share your many experiences with us for a long time to come.

Stewart

 

[Tom]

As a token of optimism, I wonder if there are not a few pockets of excellence yet in the world of accordion building. I am thinking of a couple of boutique markets for the "simpler" devices, the cajun accordions of Marc Savoy or the solo concertina builders I have encountered in Minnesota. Where, due to the lower amount of materials required, people can produce superior products at a more affordable price than a $30,000 triple cassotto a mano 160 bass 65 treble quint converter. Will the Savoys be the Golas of 2065? Only the shadow knows. I'd be buying them all up if I were you.

 

[Ventura]

I'd be buying them all up if I were you.

i have pretty much stopped buying things that are gonna last longer then ME..
how would i ever get my moneys worth ?

 

[Tom]

i have pretty much stopped buying things that are gonna last longer then ME..
how would i ever get my moneys worth ?

Trying to determine which is which, now that's the question! I wish I had bought 10 houses three years ago before they literally doubled in price.

 

[snavoyosky]

Thanks @snavoyosky, it's lovely to read these little gems of insight. Hearing your words makes me almost yearn for something that I have never known (so have no right to miss it). But, I too am a believer that, as you say "going back in time will place one closer to the truth", or at least something special...

I sometimes think, if only I go back to an earlier time and speak to Mr Gola and ask... please can you make me a piano accordion with 41 keys, 120 basses with double cassotto, a model Gola 414 will be perfect, but can you add 3 octaves Quint free bass for me too? What he might have produced would leave me speechless.

But alas the days of Mr Gola, and the glories of Scandalli, Excelsior, Victoria etc. are faded memories, relived still in the beautiful tones of old accordions that Galliano or Van Damme and many other accordionists have played.

It is a pleasure listening to your words and I hope you continue to share your many experiences with us for a long time to come.

Stewart

Thank you for your support, Stewart. I have no intent to close the door on history for we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for history. I'll give you and others an example of how history really pre-empted technology in regard to the bass section.
The Russians came forth with their bass section advancement that introduced 'single note' changeover from the stradella chords and also back to chords at will. One was made and used by Yuri Korsakov, Russia's best at the time. I forget the exact date now but I still have that LP vinyl record by Angel records of him doing all this fantastic music on a Russian accordion with sparkling harmonic reeds..........and "both sides playing against the middle". I chance a guess on the time element and say I bought that record in the middle 1950s....so this "Russian invention" transpired before that time.
Subsequently my longtime friend Julio Giulietti introduced the 'free bass' which added three chromatic single tone button rows next to the stradella bass and the three chromatic rows were located between the stradella bass and the bellows. How did this happen? Italy acquired one of those Russian Bayans to study and develop their own manufacture of single notes on that side and decided to keep the stradella as is and add those three rows. Since all Golas and Morinos contained Italian reeds instead of German reeds, Golas were also made with those three extra rows.
But here's the problem and why it became a problem for Italian free bass. Enter Mogens Ellegaard from Denmark who became part of that design group and who believe the low notes of the free bass should start at the top with the high notes at the bottom. It was done that way and really the most illogical way. Why? The test of any musical system is the ease of sightreading material. Think piano keyboard and realize that the 5th finger plays the lowest notes. The Russian freebass system has the lowest tone with the 5th finger. Sightreading is logical. When I had my special bassetti built I had 6 rows of chromatic free bass made with that "B chromatic system" and upon first play of a Chopin Prelude......it was easy to execute.
But I digress.....my point is this from above. Technology speaking......everyone was claiming, including Julio, that he developed the chromatic free bass with those three rows beside the stradella. And Russia claimed the development of changing the stradella system to B chromatic.

And me? I go to my accordion store and on the shelve is this instrument from the turn of the century (going back in time really does give us the truth)

 

[JerryPH]

@snavoyosky... looks similar to something that I had a chance to play (well, play is a strong word... wear and press buttons was more factual... lol). a mere few weeks ago!




A treacherous instrument... B-system right hand, a stradella and MIII, C-system left hand.
It felt amazing to hear it's tones!

 

[snavoyosky]

@snavoyosky... looks similar to something that I had a chance to play (well, play is a strong word... wear and press buttons was more factual... lol). a mere few weeks ago!




A treacherous instrument... B-system right hand, a stradella and MIII, C-system left hand.
It felt amazing to hear it's tones!

That appears to be a Belgium bass system....quite rare to see one. Can you verify it as being that system?

 

[JerryPH]

That appears to be a Belgium bass system....quite rare to see one. Can you verify it as being that system?

I can verify that 100%... I personally played it. I am familiar with the MIII C-system Free bass, owning a cople of accordions with it and having studied it for a good while as a younger man.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

This may help:

PROVINO

rec.music.makers.squeezebox.narkive.com

Regardless of what the post says. a bellows between 2 pieces of plywood is what I use together with a strobe emulator compuer program, with which I can see the pitch vary wth air pressure. A provino used by a trained technician might be better, but in th factory, due to the time pressure and speed of work, the end result is not necessarily better. As for changing the standard pitch,
I would say that an amateur should not attempt it, and a master tuner would be unlikely to want to. Why not just get an accordion to A 440 instead of possibly butchering perfectly good reeds? The reason it was tuned sharp was to stand out in polka bands where the horns are tuned sharp. Trying to play with amateurs in a session where even the fiddle player might not want to tune a little sharp, strikes me as slightly masochistic. But to each their own.