Making the same mistakes over and over on harder sections

[breezybellows]

Recurring mistakes can happen in several scenarios.1) You didn't invest enough time to properly learn challenging sections of the song.2) You learned it alright. You play it almost every day. After a while, a mistake pops up. You think you won't make it the next time. But it keeps happening again. You start to become uncertain when you approach that problem spot. Then the entire song falls apart. Whenever you have problem spots, it's like a creaking noise in your car's engine. If you don't address it, it's not going to magically go away. You need to perform the diagnosis and the required maintenance before the problem blows up.The only way to fix it is to focus on the problem spot and do slow repetitions that are accurate. Every time you play a song with a mistake, you are actually training your muscle memory to make that mistake.watch me fix one of my problem spots.

 

[noelekal]

I'm bad about ignoring problem passages, even in familiar tunes that I've played for over 50 years; problems that creep in, creep up on me; not properly practicing them to work out the bugs, even though I know better. I'm dismissive, expecting them to improve and go away with only a single run-through, all while knowing I'm only fooling myself.

I think to myself: " I once could play that passage effortlessly." I guess it's like picturing my hair in my mind's eye as black then seeing solid gray when I see myself in a mirror.

It's sloppy laziness! That's what it is.

Good thread! I'll remember it to encourage myself to be more disciplined.

 

[breezybellows]

I'm bad about ignoring problem passages, even in familiar tunes that I've played for over 50 years; problems that creep in, creep up on me; not properly practicing them to work out the bugs, even though I know better. I'm dismissive, expecting them to improve and go away with only a single run-through, all while knowing I'm only fooling myself.

I think to myself: " I once could play that passage effortlessly." I guess it's like picturing my hair in my mind's eye as black then seeing solid gray when I see myself in a mirror.

It's sloppy laziness! That's what it is.

Good thread! I'll remember it to encourage myself to be more disciplined.

That is exactly how I feel as well. There are some songs that I spent several months to learn and I can't play them anymore because I didn't spend the time to fix the cracks when they showed up. It's depressing.

 

[Tom]

Good ideas!

 

[dunlustin]

Joseph said: It's depressing.
I disagree - you give a 'heads up' to all of us who are too inclined to make an excuse.
"It'll be all right on the night" ??
As you point out - No, it won't unless we do something to put it right.

 

[Rodney]

Recurring mistakes can happen in several scenarios.1) You didn't invest enough time to properly learn challenging sections of the song.2) You learned it alright. You play it almost every day. After a while, a mistake pops up. You think you won't make it the next time. But it keeps happening again. You start to become uncertain when you approach that problem spot. Then the entire song falls apart. Whenever you have problem spots, it's like a creaking noise in your car's engine. If you don't address it, it's not going to magically go away. You need to perform the diagnosis and the required maintenance before the problem blows up.The only way to fix it is to focus on the problem spot and do slow repetitions that are accurate. Every time you play a song with a mistake, you are actually training your muscle memory to make that mistake.watch me fix one of my problem spots.

If only we could learn what we want to learn instead of learning our mistakes. I’m as guilty as anyone of trying to increase the tempo when everything seems to be going well and that’s just when a mistake occurs! What’s even worse is trying again to see if the error can be eliminated, but usually it just deteriorates into more errors. At long last I’m beginning to learn that the remedy lies in slowing right down and playing with meticulous care, if errors continue, slow down even further and when the problem phrase can be repeated 10 times without error, then try a small increase in tempo. If there’s an error on repeat number nine, it’s back to starting at number one again. OCD is a real risk, but that’s life!

 

[Pipemajor]

picturing my hair in my mind's eye as black then seeing solid gray when I see myself in a mirror.

Hair??
my memory doesn't go that far back

 

[JerryPH]

Mistakes... no big sermon here, it is simple to address...SLOW It DOWN until you can play it without the mistake, practice until you can play it 5 times without error, slowly raise the speed up to a little faster than the music requests so that when playing it at speed, it feels easy.

 

[Alans]

Totally agree with Rodney and Jerry. It’s the hardest thing to learn to do in music-we want to play music from the top to the end--but only by playing very slowly can we correct our mistakes. It takes a tremendous amount of patience. I study with someone who insists on stopping me every time I make a mistake, and it’s the same mistakes over and over again,and then he asks me to play the same bar ten times.It can feel very frustrating but after years of agony I think it’s the best way to learn. My teacher’s method is to repeat the bar over and over again,then add one bar before it. If you can make it through without a traffic pile-up you can move on. At my lesson I asked my teacher who has a career in accordion performance if he does this in his practise and he said all the time. He agreed it’s very frustrating but it’s the only way to learn correctly.

 

[Zevy]

I see all kinds of good ideas here. Just to add my two cents: It is sometimes a good idea to lay off for a few days or even a week or so. That way, you can go back with a fresh open mind and start anew.

 

[JEBrown]

Totally agree with Rodney and Jerry. It’s the hardest thing to learn to do in music-we want to play music from the top to the end--but only by playing very slowly can we correct our mistakes. It takes a tremendous amount of patience. I study with someone who insists on stopping me every time I make a mistake, and it’s the same mistakes over and over again,and then he asks me to play the same bar ten times.It can feel very frustrating but after years of agony I think it’s the best way to learn. My teacher’s method is to repeat the bar over and over again,then add one bar before it. If you can make it through without a traffic pile-up you can move on. At my lesson I asked my teacher who has a career in accordion performance if he does this in his practise and he said all the time. He agreed it’s very frustrating but it’s the only way to learn correctly.

Agreed, the only way to fix this is by repetition of the problem bar, phrase or even notes. Start slowly, to get your fingers round it, but then you need to practise at 'performance speed' to get the right feeling and momentum of your hands. It's really difficult to be this patient (I rarely manage it myself, but feel more motivated when I have a gig coming up)

 

[breezybellows]

Agreed, the only way to fix this is by repetition of the problem bar, phrase or even notes. Start slowly, to get your fingers round it, but then you need to practise at 'performance speed' to get the right feeling and momentum of your hands. It's really difficult to be this patient (I rarely manage it myself, but feel more motivated when I have a gig coming up)

I've been spending a lot of time with the problem spot (a two octave jump on left hand).

It has improved in the last 2 days. But I need more repetitions. After the repetitions, it starts good for a while. I've been repeating the problem spot (starting two measures before and ending one measure after) for about 20 minutes straight without making mistakes. I can play the whole song about 3 times perfectly after that. When I do more repetitions, the pinky resets to it's annoying incorrect position. I think I'll have to keep doing this for a few more days to make sure the gains are not temporary. This seems to be the only major problem in this song now. Let me see how this goes.

 

[Zevy]

You might want to try a different fingering.

 

[RTW]

This is an excellent post on instruction to deal with correcting the same mistakes. Does anyone think the player, knowing he or she is approaching the problem section, gets panicked mentally that leads to a repeat of the same mistake (not sure I worded the question perfectly correct, but I have experienced anxiety/panic as I approach the problem parts - even after I have corrected the problem with repetitive practice)

Regards,
RTW

 

[JKJ]

…. My teacher’s method is to repeat the bar over and over again,then add one bar before it. If you can make it through without a traffic pile-up you can move on. At my lesson I asked my teacher who has a career in accordion performance if he does this in his practise and he said all the time. He agreed it’s very frustrating but it’s the only way to learn correctly.

Slowing it down combined with agonizing repetition is the only thing I know that works!

But how slow? My piano teacher’s advice from decades ago, not necessarily to correct simple mistakes, but for learning difficult passages: consider the desired speed, then cut that speed in half and cut it in half AGAIN and play through the section at about 1/4 the speed. When that is reliably clean, work then at the 1/2 speed until it’s perfect before continuing. I found this this absolutely necessary for difficult music, for example, the fast 2-hand cadenzas in the Liszt nocturne Liebestraum #3!

Your teacher’s method sounds great for short sections with mistakes for pieces already “learned”. I like the buildup method of adding the previous section, then practice with a longer lead in until the problem section flows comfortably.

(As I mentioned earlier, I’m an absolute beginner at accordion but I’m sure successful practice techniques are the same as every other instrument on earth!)

JKJ

 

[breezybellows]

This is an excellent post on instruction to deal with correcting the same mistakes. Does anyone think the player, knowing he or she is approaching the problem section, gets panicked mentally that leads to a repeat of the same mistake (not sure I worded the question perfectly correct, but I have experienced anxiety/panic as I approach the problem parts - even after I have corrected the problem with repetitive practice)

Regards,
RTW

Yes. The problem is both physical and mental. If I'm not even thinking about it, it works out good. If I focus on it, then the fingers different up.

 

[breezybellows]

You might want to try a different fingering.

In this case - unfortunately - that is not an option. Because the jump is from C2 to C4 on the left hand. I play it with fingers 2 and 5. Changing that will (I guess) only make it harder.

 

[murathan]

Many people dont care but I like to introduce the level. People must level up carefully and slowly. To practice a piece far beyond your level will get you hard time although you wanted. You may be able to play a piece by working too much, but because it doesnt have a background, its kind of hollow, it doesnt mean you are progressed. Mistakes comes from there.

 

[breezybellows]

Many people dont care but I like to introduce the level. People must level up carefully and slowly. To practice a piece far beyond your level will get you hard time although you wanted. You may be able to play a piece by working too much, but because it doesnt have a background, its kind of hollow, it doesnt mean you are progressed. Mistakes comes from there.

That's true. My teachers didn't encourage me to learn these. I worked on it because I badly wanted it. Overall I'm glad how it has worked out so far.

 

[murathan]

That's true. My teachers didn't encourage me to learn these. I worked on it because I badly wanted it. Overall I'm glad how it has worked out so far.

I saw some books are too much layered either in western countries. That may be a good idea for lesson to lesson learners. But those who work on it will feel that level up.