Midi accordion and arranger keyboard / module

[Thomas N]

I use the drum patterns and accompaniment patterns, also I use the intro on some and endings on almost all. Easy way to end a piece with near zero effort.

One thing that bugs me, Jerry, is that I normally am finishing a song on Variation 4. When you click Ending you get the Ending for Variation 4 which can be a bit obnoxious on some styles. I would rather have the Ending for Variation 1. So far the only thing I can do is hit Variation 1 and then Ending immediately after. I'm sure there's a way to do this in one step and I probably should break out the manual!

 

[JerryPH]

One thing that bugs me, Jerry, is that I normally am finishing a song on Variation 4. When you click Ending you get the Ending for Variation 4 which can be a bit obnoxious on some styles. I would rather have the Ending for Variation 1. So far the only thing I can do is hit Variation 1 and then Ending immediately after. I'm sure there's a way to do this in one step and I probably should break out the manual!

With Ketron arrangers, they've divided this, so your endings and drum fills are literally different pedal buttons. On the BK, they've kinda lumped it in to two steps as you say.

99% of the time, I simply accept the variation that I want to end, and just hit the ENDING button on my pedal. The sounds are progressive, 1 is quieter and 4 being the most "complex". I usually work up that chain in the song and end in the most dynamic manner.

OK since I have the BK sitting here in front of my at my mixer, I can do a fast experiment.

I've never bothered to even see if they even can do the trick like with the intro (before starting the beat, be in variation 1, hit INTRO, select the intro you want, ie: 3, and when you hit start, it does intro #3 and moves in to variation 1). I just basically tried it now, and it doesn't seem to work in the same way, so you CANNOT "preset" your ending in advance, BUT...

The only way that I got it to work for your particular situation, (and it CAN be done, but it takes TIMING), is possible.

If you note, whenever you hit the ENDING, it completes the current measure THEN inserts the ending.

If you are playing a song with 4 beats per measure, on the 2nd or 3rd beat hit ENDING, then select the variation you want BEFORE that measure is over, it completes the measure and uses the ending of your choice... et voila, you can be playing in 1 variation and end in another, BUT if you start the process on the 3rd measure, miss that "window of opportunity", it ends with whatever ending that your current variation is set to.

Takes some pedal dexterity, but is VERY doable. The challenge is if you are playing a fast waltz, you have to complete the 2 button presses in under 2 beats else it gives you the wrong ending... so practice may be needed!

Apologies to Eurofolker for pulling his thread in a slightly different direction.

 

[Thomas N]

With Ketron arrangers, they've divided this, so your endings and drum fills are literally different pedal buttons. On the BK, they've kinda lumped it in to two steps as you say.

99% of the time, I simply accept the variation that I want to end, and just hit the ENDING button on my pedal. The sounds are progressive, 1 is quieter and 4 being the most "complex". I usually work up that chain in the song and end in the most dynamic manner.

OK since I have the BK sitting here in front of my at my mixer, I can do a fast experiment.

I've never bothered to even see if they even can do the trick like with the intro (before starting the beat, be in variation 1, hit INTRO, select the intro you want, ie: 3, and when you hit start, it does intro #3 and moves in to variation 1). I just basically tried it now, and it doesn't seem to work in the same way, so you CANNOT "preset" your ending in advance, BUT...

The only way that I got it to work for your particular situation, (and it CAN be done, but it takes TIMING), is possible.

If you note, whenever you hit the ENDING, it completes the current measure THEN inserts the ending.

If you are playing a song with 4 beats per measure, on the 2nd or 3rd beat hit ENDING, then select the variation you want BEFORE the measure is over, it completes the measure and uses the ending of your choice... et voila, you can be playing in 1 variation and end in another, BUT if you start the process on the 3rd measure, miss that "window of opportunity", it ends with whatever ending that your current variation is set to.

Takes some pedal dexterity, but is VERY doable.

Yep! That's exactly what I do. But I have missed before and then you start getting the two minute ending LOL! Fortunately they will let you go back to Variation 1 from the Ending and stop that process, which is nice.

I always start on Variation 2 and usually have Intro 3 to start. So I normally hit Sync to Start, Select Variation 2, then click Intro and then click Variation 3 and you'll see Variation 3 blinking, which means it is the Intro, and then it will move to Variation 2 for the actual song start. The process is not elegant, and I have the Korg 5-pedal footswitch which makes things bearable.

Thanks for the reply Jerry!

 

[Squeezeplay]

I use a Ketron module, and you can use any ending or intro with any rhythm variation. When you are programming your tune, you tell the arranger which intro or ending you want with a particular tune. It remains that way forever unless you change its programming. OR you can set your arranger to always use ending 1,2,3,or four. Or you can use 1,2,3 or 4 except on specific tunes.

 

[Thomas N]

I use a Ketron module, and you can use any ending or intro with any rhythm variation. When you are programming your tune, you tell the arranger which intro or ending you want with a particular tune. It remains that way forever unless you change its programming. OR you can set your arranger to always use ending 1,2,3,or four. Or you can use 1,2,3 or 4 except on specific tunes.

Very nice feature! I sure wish my BK-7M had that.

 

[breezybellows]

But that is not a limitation of the wireless midi, that’s a requirement to use ANY arranger on ANY midi powered accordion if you want the arranger to use the right chord from the first beat on any chord change, no other functional work around that sounds right exists, the player has to tell the module when to change chords… or of course one could attach the module to the keyboard of a keyboard player that handles all the chord changes for you, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having MIDI on the accordion, right?

There is no magic secret sauce for when the arranger will change chords other than that.

This is one of the reasons why I never tried using an arranger with my accordion. The stradella bass let's you put together a rhythm and control the dynamics and tempo. Arranger feels like using AI to generate a backing track. Personally, I think the output feels too repetitive.

 

[Pbraido]

One thing that bugs me, Jerry, is that I normally am finishing a song on Variation 4. When you click Ending you get the Ending for Variation 4 which can be a bit obnoxious on some styles. I would rather have the Ending for Variation 1. So far the only thing I can do is hit Variation 1 and then Ending immediately after. I'm sure there's a way to do this in one step and I probably should break out the manual!

What I do is program one of my chin switches or the very top bass button on the outside or a foot pedal to preform ending number 1 on the BK7m when pressed you can do this through the FR8x menu I’m sure it can be done on the 4x also it works excellent as I use it on gigs

 

[Pbraido]

Very nice feature! I sure wish my BK-7M had that.

You can do this with the BK7m also I do it all the time

 

[JerryPH]

What I do is program one of my chin switches or the very top bass button on the outside or a foot pedal to preform ending number 1 on the BK7m when pressed you can do this through the FR8x menu I’m sure it can be done on the 4x also it works excellent as I use it on gigs

I knew that the 8x could do this, just never tried, but it is an excellent alternative methods.

 

[dak]

This is one of the reasons why I never tried using an arranger with my accordion. The stradella bass let's you put together a rhythm and control the dynamics and tempo. Arranger feels like using AI to generate a backing track. Personally, I think the output feels too repetitive.

It sure beats a metronome. Much more fun, and better training for ensemble play. With regard to repetitive: I've hacked a number of percussion scores into LilyPond for the sake of our accordion ensemble and used the MS80 arranger for playback. But for most pieces, before I converted existing scores to MIDI, we usually we started training with some default style. For "Perfidia", I refused replacing the MS40 style with the percussion "score" we had since that score had, all in all, about four different measures (two of them in the ending). Talk about repetitive.

 

[breezybellows]

It sure beats a metronome. Much more fun, and better training for ensemble play. With regard to repetitive: I've hacked a number of percussion stores into LilyPond for the sake of our accordion ensemble and used the MS80 arranger for playback. But for most pieces, before I converted existing scores to MIDI, we usually we started training with some default style. For "Perfidia", I refused replacing the MS40 style with the percussion "score" we had since that score had, all in all, about four different measures (two of them in the ending). Talk about repetitive.

There are trade offs. I haven't played an arranger since I was about 15. I had no idea what I was doing back then. Maybe I'm associating the repetitiveness with my own inabilities back then.

 

[dak]

Maybe I'm assisting the repetitiveness with my own inabilities back then.

Well, putting this into perspective: arrangers for me have a point as training material (as I said, sure beats a metronome). They have "canned" qualities to be sure, but the can is fuller than I can make it myself. I am hooked on all the subtleties inside of the limited universe of my acoustic boxes. I play those for my own enjoyment. You don't easily get an audience that is similarly invested. When the solo track is taken by the accordion/right hand, there is considerable tolerance for "backing tracks" that are not as obviously under player control (just ask those "solo violinists" with their backing amps). When you are using non-accordion basses on a Roland or by using a MIDI bass, chances are that trading off individual note control to an arranger is a net win for the audience. However, for that to pay off, you must be on top of the arranger and solidly in control of it. If you are just bumbling along, that will totally tank the appreciation. So while there are some low-hanging fruit in connection with playing for an audience, you must not confuse this with letting fruit fall to the ground and get blemishes.

I've witnessed some players making really good performances using arrangers. I've also witnessed a few who were not fun to watch. If you don't put in the work to turn an arranger into more than training wheels on steroids for your own use, using them for entertainment is likely not a good idea.

 

[Thomas N]

You can do this with the BK7m also I do it all the time

I didn't know that! How do you accomplish this? I would like the BK-7M to always use ending version 1. I like the quick and simple ending.

I know you can program in songs and do that but I'm talking about generally playing along with the arranger. I'd like to be on variation 4 for the last few verses of the arrangement and then just hit my foot switch for ending and have it end on variation 1 - not the current variation playing which would be #4.

I have used the chin switches before and you can even dedicate bass buttons to change the BK-7M features. I found that I play very dynamically and always would inadvertently hit the chin switches when I didn't want to. I set them all to OFF now.

 

[Thomas N]

There are trade offs. I haven't played an arranger since I was about 15. I had no idea what I was doing back then. Maybe I'm associating the repetitiveness with my own inabilities back then.

They are invaluable - but it depends on how you play in my opinion. There are a lot of players out there with arrangers that play the melody with an accordion sound, advance the arranger, play the exact same melody (and the exact same way) with a guitar sound, advance the arranger, play the exact same melody with a saxophone sound, etc. To me it's boring as can be. But I am not one for playing a song the same way every time anyway.

For something like Fly Me to The Moon, it's a blast to play it with an arranger. I'll practice it with multiple different jazz arrangement parts. I'll play it with a very fast Swing tempo and improvise over that, then I'll play it with a very slow Jazz Ballad and improvise that and it's a very different song. I'll switch between a Jazz Bassoon reed and an Accordion/Organ overlay and you can break up the song that way. It keeps things interesting for me and never boring.

I use the BK-7M for all kinds of weird things. I play waltzes in 4/4 time, I'll play Italian standards with rock or country rhythms. Just this morning I was playing Oh Marie as a waltz and then with a Django swing jazz rhythm.

And then some days I'll say forget it all, and pick up the acoustic and just play. I was without my arranger for a year because my FR-8X had a dead MIDI board and since I've had it repaired it's been almost non-stop using it every day. It's never repetitive or stale to me.

 

[Thomas N]

What I do is program one of my chin switches or the very top bass button on the outside or a foot pedal to preform ending number 1 on the BK7m when pressed you can do this through the FR8x menu I’m sure it can be done on the 4x also it works excellent as I use it on gigs

I think I just answered my own question by reading your response. I didn't dive deep enough into the foot switch settings. So I can just have a foot switch always perform Ending #1. Excellent! I have it set for Ending now which of course plays the current variation ending. I should have looked at ALL the available options. This is great. Thank you!

 

[John M]

. . . Oh Marie as a waltz and then with a Django swing jazz rhythm. . .

Just so I understand -- Are you playing Frankie Yankovics', Oh Marie polka in waltz time? -- the original was in 4/4 or 2/4 time. That would be very Interesting.

 

[Thomas N]

Just so I understand -- Are you playing Frankie Yankovics', Oh Marie polka in waltz time? -- the original was in 4/4 or 2/4 time. That would be very Interesting.

Hah hah! No. The old Italian standard. It's a 4/4 tune the way I learned it growing up (it's in Eb) but playing it as a waltz provides extremely interesting results and it really works your brain!

 

[KeysFla]

A system is good as the cheapest component. If I go with the FISA, I would definitely pair it with my Korg PA5x. The modules never worked well for me. Korg arrangers has been my arranger for over a decade. I would take sound quality over size of a component any day. Setup time is no different. As we need to take it out of a case, place on something, connect wires. But I also play only the arranger keyboard on some gigs. As a backup, if accordion fails, I can play the keyboard arranger keys to get me through the gig. And vice versa, with V Accordion you can play a gig successfully without an arranger keyboard or module. A win win situation.