Next-generation of FR-8x? (Production of FR-8xb RD has been terminated)

[nomadam]

Hi, I am a newcomer living in Japan. Now it is the long holiday called golden week, and there are some sales.
When I visited some music store today, the staff told me that the production of the red bottom edition (FR-8xb) has been terminated.
Not sure about FR-8XB BK, FR-8X BK, and FR-8X RD.

Would like to know if there is any news about the next generation. Thanks!

They are not sure if this means that Roland will release the next generation of this high-end product line.
At least, there is no news about the R&D for the next generation, they added.

Considering that 1) Roland terminated its operation in European, which used to be the R&D center for digital accordions (key person Luigi Bruti also left the company), 2) the accordion market is shrinking, I am afraid that finally, Roland will discontinue its digital accordion business.

 

[JerryPH]

R&D for the V-accordion has been stopped many years ago. The dream unfortunately died with the old president of Roland (Kazuhisa Takahashi). When they brought in the new head (Junichi Miki) on April 1 2013, that was pretty much the day that the V-accordion died.

 

[Pbraido]

That’s unfortunate because it was and still is such a good product - one of the best digital accordions made

 

[JerryPH]

I completely agree. Another great example of the "Beta vs VHS" effect. An older product is superior, yet still manages to get killed off thanks to the search for the last penny of profit.

I remember the FR-9X video that was on YouTube released by someone from Romania that conveniently "disappeared" a few days after release. Makes me sorry I did not follow my gut feeling and download that video, if for nothing more than the sake of posterity.

 

[John M]

I don't know how many 8X accordions were made, but if there were enough of them, there may be an aftermarket 3rd party, that will supply parts as the accordions get older and there is a demand for replacement parts. That happened when Hammond stopped production on the tonewheel organs in 1975. Parts are till available today from 3rd party suppliers. There is also a company (Trek II), that is still designing circuit boards today to keep the old "tonewheels turning". Let's hope something may come up like this for the "V" accordions.

John M.

 

[Ventura]

unfortunately, for many companies like Hammond, the final days
ended in actual complete cessation of business

the Chicago offices simply closed, the paperwork and such all went to the incinerator

part, supplies, partial assemblies went at auction and the largest
Hammond Repair centers pretty much bought up whatever they could afford

the rights to the name were sold off later as chapter 11 played out to finality

originally, Suzuki in Australia was the high bidder for the Hammond Brand name,
and after awhile came out with a new line of hammond keyboards

but tonewheels (which had stopped being used in Production models around 1960)
refused to die, and specialists sprang up, with rebult B3's and such still in high
demand here in the USA and commanding high prices

when some old derelict shows up on Craigslist out of a church basement,
it is quickly snapped up

i still have a working M3 in the studio.. nothing sound or feels quite like a Hammond

but the Cordovox "clone" i assembled centered around a Roland drawbar module
and controlled from a Roland FR3 sounded awesome and is still a lot of fun, and
still gets rolled it to a gig now and then

there are of course quite a few "hammond clones' still being manufactured,
and many are really great organs, but when a factory gets liquidated
(like SEM and Farfisa were in our accordion industry) there is always a loss of
machine capability and institutional knowledge that
CANNOT
be reverse engineered
and so is lost forever

the other sad part is, whoever ends up with the brand names often
weaves a pack of lies to fool people into believing it never went out of business
and that the original factory still somehow exists and still makes everything
the same way etc. etc. etc.

ciao

Ventura

 

[nomadam]

Thanks for the info! I guess I should buy one before this lineup become out of stock...

It is very sad to know that the R&D has been stopped a long time ago.
When FR-4X was released, there was an interview with the person in charge of V-Accordion in Japan, Keisuke Matsumoto from No. 3 Development Department of Roland (the webpage is below, unfortunately, it is only in Japanese).
In the interview, Mr. Matsumoto mentioned that the R&D center for Accordion had been moved to Japan.
I was hoping that this product line would be continued.

The interview with the person in charge of the development of Roland V-Accordion FR-4x

最新Vアコーディオン・Roland FR-4x開発者インタビュー

アコーディオン愛に溢れたエンジニア、ローランド第3開発部の松本敬介さんに新製品「FR-4x」についてお話をお伺いしました。

www.ikebe-gakki.com

 

[John M]

So, where did Bugari Evo and the new Proxima (that isn't out yet) get their hardware, circuit boards, etc? I thought both "engines" are basically a Roland 8X.

John

 

[Alan Sharkis]

The EVO has an FR-8x sound engine. The Proxima is supposed to be an all-new, all Italian design with nothing Roland in it.

 

[JerryPH]

So, where did Bugari Evo and the new Proxima (that isn't out yet) get their hardware, circuit boards, etc? I thought both "engines" are basically a Roland 8X.

John

Bugari Evo are basically Roland FR-8X parts. Why do you think there are Evo flying around? It's because there are some 8X parts. The day the 8X parts are used up... there is no EVO.

Proxima is a completely other company stated up by the same guy as the Bugari Evo. Currently its also vapourware, not even worth talking about as no one can buy one.

 

[JerryPH]

The EVO has an FR-8x sound engine. The Proxima is supposed to be an all-new, all Italian design with nothing Roland in it.

"All Italian design" Created, made and sold out of... China.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

"All Italian design" Created, made and sold out of... China.

Could very well be, Time will tell -- or not!

 

[JerryPH]

Could very well be, Time will tell -- or not!

Already proven. Marco C found his manufacturer while in China promoting the EVO )a place he spent near the first year of it's release before making the EVO even available to anyone anywhere else in the world... including Europe (a year later after release announcement) and North America (18 months after release date, and it took a touch over 2 years to get a singular distributor in North America, Petosa).

History loves to repeat itself (this stuff is documented via social media, why people don't see the patterns is beyond me... lol).

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Already proven. Marco C found his manufacturer while in China promoting the EVO )a place he spent near the first year of it's release before making the EVO even available to anyone anywhere else in the world... including Europe (a year later after release announcement) and North America (18 months after release date, and it took a touch over 2 years to get a singular distributor in North America, Petosa).

History loves to repeat itself (this stuff is documented via social media, why people don't see the patterns is beyond me... lol).

It all comes down to supervision and the will to make Chinese manufacturers stick to the design and materials that they are given — but that costs, dare I say it, money. Marco claims that chip shortages are causing delays. He points to a fire in a chip plant, the same Covid-caused supply line issues that are making car prices so high, and a host of other issues for delays in getting this product to market.

Yes, I’ll repeat what I’ve saying all along. I won’t buy a Mia, but I’d like to see Proxima succeed. Now that Roland will probably not continue development of digital accordions, we do need a new product. But if I’m losing patience with Proxima and I won’t buy a Mia, think of all the guys who put down deposits on pre-orders. If I were a distributor, sure that’s money I’d have to keep in escrow, but if I had to return it to customers, I’d still keep at least some of the interest it earned, if not all. So, I don’t feel bad for distributors. I do feel bad for the guys who pinned their hopes on the Proxima Mia as the next evolution in digital accordions.

 

[Ventura]

warning: another pontification is below

i searched famously in italy on my first visit for "Tastierra Sensitiva"
but the only one in existence was, of course, the Solton that was
plauged with constant need to adjust the mechanical contacts spacing
and therefore, though a wonderful attempt, a failure in practice for Gigging Musicians

nevertheless, the wizard doing the sound setups and sampling was so awesome and
so far ahead of his contemporaries that his sound engine laid the groundwork
for the long term success of Solton/Ketron partnership and development
(the company itself was an Italian-German collaboration)

then giving up on the velocity keyboard, i became satisfied with simple MIDI
on-off keying, which in truth was all we needed to follow in the footsteps of
the Jazz Greats who entertained so many people with Cordovox and Iorio and Duovox
on countless GIgs here in the states

and of course simple MIDI gave us younger guys the complete ability to
riff Hush, I'm a Man, 96 Tears, Kind of a Drag, Insence and Peppermints,
and countless other hard Rock and Roll and Pop hits

meanwhile, MIDI guys like me found other ways to use Piano and Guitar
and other percussive sounds through the use of timing, pedals, and tweaking the
attack parameters on our Synth modules... i made a LOT of money doing
"Big Band" music and WW2 tribute gigs for decades on my MIDI Ex 960

so by the time we actually DID get touch sensitive Accordions, i was like
cool, take it or leave it , use it while we have it, enjoyed adding Sax and Bagpipes
and such to the sound mix

yeah the Bagpipes... see, i already knew 2 songs the original recordings
had bagpipes (connemara and Si Piu Fare) so yes i used them !

but i could Still be happy as all get out with a simple MIDI accordion any time

and still am

so i frankly cannot bemoan the state of the future of digital Accordions, because
i really do not need them to be happy, and neither do YOU guys if you would just
adjust your possibles by re-discovering the huge and incredfible world we
have had at our fingertips for 40 years now, and for a PITTANCE compared to our original
investments in early adoption equipment.

screw Roland for wasting not one second tossing out the heritage and company vision
of Ikaturo Kakehashi

i can live with, or without them

ciao

Ventura

 

[Giovanni]

Hi Ventura , As always a well explained answer .. I agree with you in what you say ... you are spot on !! I've found this out the hard way .

 

[Alan Sharkis]

warning: another pontification is below

i searched famously in italy on my first visit for "Tastierra Sensitiva"
but the only one in existence was, of course, the Solton that was
plauged with constant need to adjust the mechanical contacts spacing
and therefore, though a wonderful attempt, a failure in practice for Gigging Musicians

nevertheless, the wizard doing the sound setups and sampling was so awesome and
so far ahead of his contemporaries that his sound engine laid the groundwork
for the long term success of Solton/Ketron partnership and development
(the company itself was an Italian-German collaboration)

then giving up on the velocity keyboard, i became satisfied with simple MIDI
on-off keying, which in truth was all we needed to follow in the footsteps of
the Jazz Greats who entertained so many people with Cordovox and Iorio and Duovox
on countless GIgs here in the states

and of course simple MIDI gave us younger guys the complete ability to
riff Hush, I'm a Man, 96 Tears, Kind of a Drag, Insence and Peppermints,
and countless other hard Rock and Roll and Pop hits

meanwhile, MIDI guys like me found other ways to use Piano and Guitar
and other percussive sounds through the use of timing, pedals, and tweaking the
attack parameters on our Synth modules... i made a LOT of money doing
"Big Band" music and WW2 tribute gigs for decades on my MIDI Ex 960

so by the time we actually DID get touch sensitive Accordions, i was like
cool, take it or leave it , use it while we have it, enjoyed adding Sax and Bagpipes
and such to the sound mix

yeah the Bagpipes... see, i already knew 2 songs the original recordings
had bagpipes (connemara and Si Piu Fare) so yes i used them !

but i could Still be happy as all get out with a simple MIDI accordion any time

and still am

so i frankly cannot bemoan the state of the future of digital Accordions, because
i really do not need them to be happy, and neither do YOU guys if you would just
adjust your possibles by re-discovering the huge and incredfible world we
have had at our fingertips for 40 years now, and for a PITTANCE compared to our original
investments in early adoption equipment.

screw Roland for wasting not one second tossing out the heritage and company vision
of Ikaturo Kakehashi

i can live with, or without them

ciao

Ventura

OK, it’s off your chest, Ventura. In some fashion I agree with you, although we could probably both see the end of development of V-Accordions at Roland. Any product that accounts for such a small percentage of a company’s sales is doomed, no matter how the visionaries at that company might protest.

Midi accordions, reedless accordions that employ MIDI, expanders, hard and soft arrangers have been described as two-dimensional by one of the largest Roland V-Accordion dealers in comparison to Roland’s V-Accordions. But that same dealer did not hesitate to sell me an AxE-Cord after my knee was replaced and I couldn’t have any weight on my left thigh for a while. At the same time, he continued to service that AxE-Cord when it needed service, even making a trip to my house at one time to do so. He also re-adjusted the sensors on my midi-equipped acoustic accordion even though I didn’t buy it from him, and contacted Roland on my behalf way past the warranty periodd when my FR-4x locked up and wouldn’t reset itself after a few days.

Yes, I seem to have found a dealer who cares about customer service, and I can go on about him forever. He’ll do OK when the Rolands die out. He did so before they made their debut, and he hasn’t lost his affiliation with the Italian acoustic accordion manufacturers. So, until and if another digital accordion actually gets to market, we can still do well with those MIDI instruments, expanders and arrangers and, lets not forget, live band members!

 

[JIM D.]

I'm hoping to have some accurate info on the Roland Accordion situation shortly. Sam Falcetti as he has done for years personally
traveled to Italy and returned with info on the digital accordion industry. As most of you know I have been affiliated with Falcetti
Music for some 55 years now. Sam is leaving the 14th and will be in Italy for 3 weeks. There has been many rumors of late and
Sam's trip should make then more clear. One such rumor is that a new CEO will or has been appointed and is not Japanese
but in fact a businessman of the UK. A positive move if in fact true.
I hope to have much waited for info and in 3+ weeks should have it and I will share in on this Forum.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Hopeful signs? A new CEO for Roland may look favorably on further development of V-accordions because there seems to be a lot of users in his country. Let’s hope so.

As for Sam, while I don’t know him, he has a wonderful reputation and from what little I’ve seen of him here and there he impresses me as a straight shooter, so I’ll listen to what he says carefully.

Thanks, John, for these two important bits of information.

 

[John M]

I just watched the Proxima Video. Unless I missed it, I didn't see an Organ section, There was the Accordion Section and two Orchestra Sections. That's interesting, since the first electronic addition to the accordion was the Organ on the Cordovox. I guess times are changing. I would miss that "Hammond Sound" with the ability to add the Leslie Tremolo (internally or externally).

John M.