Palmer-Hughes Quint Free Bass

[harmonikadave]

Hi John M,

The thing with playing scales on quint converter is that you are not bound by the finger patterns of stadella. There are whole new paths available, and they transform the experience entirely. This is where our friend on the quint review has really missed the mark badly. It is not his fault, there are simply other routes available. It just requires a little lateral thinking (or the scales sheet with finger work notated). When you choose the right paths, the 'crossover point' melts away, it becomes a flow. It is a real shame that some people will make a decision without knowing the correct finger pattern.

Quint has its own finger options. (the 'c' beside a number means counter bass)

C major on stradella: 4 - 2 - 4c - 5 - 3 - 5c - 3c - 4
C major on quint : 2 - 5c - 3c - 4- 2 - 5c - 3c - 2 (the last note on the 2nd finger is the start of the next octave).

After a little practice of the new finger pattern the results are quite remarkable. The octaves will fall into place. Every musical key will have it's own best finger pattern. This is where it is a good idea to have the right study materials - so you can know how to make the best choice. No point guessing it.

I am happy to take some time to try and help anyone who is open to the possibility of the quint system. It genuinely has some wonderful potential, and I think it's great.​

Hi Walker, thanks for your knowledgable and generous insight into quint freebass. I have been wanting to play bass notes over more than the stradella "octave" for a long time now. I am struggling to find anyone near me who teaches freebass. I have agonised over the chromatic v quint decision for quite some time. Fortuitously I have just been lent a titano with quint converter. Have been bumbling about trying to see what I could do on my own with below average results. Your fingering for the c major scale has been a revelation. I have taken your recommendation and purchased the Palmer Hughes freebass books. Am wondering if you could put up some fingerings for a couple of other keys, to tide me over till the books arrive.

 

[Walker]

You are welcome @harmonikadave, I will email you all the major and minor scales as the document is too big to upload here.

I am glad you have been able to order these books:

Palmer - Hughes Instruction Book for Converter Accordion
Palmer - Hughes Selections for Free Bass Accordion Book 1
Palmer - Hughes Selections for Free Bass Accordion Book 2

I think they are worth their weight in gold.

 

[dak]

If only we could come to simple conclusions about accordions whatever their design.
More good reading here:

The Classical Free-Reed, Inc, The Classical Bayan

Click on the author's name to discover another fascinating man who, it turns out, plays quint PA.

Maybe apocryphal: I once heard that the C system was a rip-off of the Russians' B system to avoid patent difficulties.

That doesn't convince me, given that the first occurences of the B system were with the Schrammelharmonika (B system on the right, diatonic bass) used in Viennese music. This would have been prior art preventing a Russian patent on the B system.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I have a Roland FR-4x, which gives me a choice of several free bass systems. In my mind, as a.person who played Stradella up to just a short time ago, I narrowed the choices to C-system or Quint. Most of the people I consulted said C-system was the better choice, so I started with that, and so far, I have no regrets.

The reason I was given to avoid Quint, and this was for almost all of the people I consulted, was that although Quint would be instantly familiar to somebody who already knew Stradella, there would be stumbling blocks further on. What did I know? I followed the crowd, and so far, I’m OK.

 

[dak]

I have a Roland FR-4x, which gives me a choice of several free bass systems. In my mind, as a.person who played Stradella up to just a short time ago, I narrowed the choices to C-system or Quint. Most of the people I consulted said C-system was the better choice, so I started with that, and so far, I have no regrets.

The reason I was given to avoid Quint, and this was for almost all of the people I consulted, was that although Quint would be instantly familiar to somebody who already knew Stradella, there would be stumbling blocks further on. What did I know? I followed the crowd, and so far, I’m OK.

One comparatively bland reason is range. The standard "big" converter range is 58 notes. That would mean 10 bass rows on quint bass. Now admittedly quint bass seems very much focused on piano accordion players, and for those a range of 48 notes is already luxurious. However, if you play duets, you have to reach treble range in both hands, and of course you still have to be able to hit the bass in the left.

 

[Walker]

In the heyday of the free bass accordion in America it has been estimated that (by 1975) some 70% of all Titano accordions built were Quint free bass models. It's quite amazing that the free bass instrument was so popular in the USA at that time. Indeed, as I mentioned the Palmer & Hughes learning materials were brilliantly produced and, quite frankly, a credit to America and it's accordion heritage.

In this day and age, having spoken to some people in the accordion industry there, I have been advised that America has largely returned to stradella bass only. I don't mind that as I love stradella bass too. That said, I actually believe that there are lots of people in America who still play free bass accordion as a hobby etc. Some will play Quint system and other folk will chose Chromatic systems. There will always be a bit of to and fro about the advantages and disadvantages of each system.

Now, I have always looked up to the American accordion heritage and it is no secret that my all time favourite American accordionist is William Popp. William Popp is a Doctor of Composition and writes classical and contemporary music for free bass accordion. He plays a Quint free bass system instrument - a vintage Titano Cosmopolitan Converter piano accordion.. To me this man is an inspiration. He possesses the qualities I admire in great Americans. He has a quite intellect, kindness, thoughtfulness and an unassuming way that shines through. He is also one of the main reasons why I undertook an online course in Composition at Cardiff University, specialising in writing contemporary music for Quint free bass accordion.

When you have great accordionists to look up to it gives a new perspective on the instrument. I don't see Quint free bass as anything other than wonderful. I think Chromatic free bass is great too and I have spent quite a considerable time with both instruments.

I wanted to share some of the recordings of Dr. William Popp here, seeing as we are in the Quint free bass thread.

I love Popp's interpretations of Baroque music:



Also his "simple" writings for free bass learners are just wonderful. Of course, I have all of his "Piccola Musica" suite and it's perfect for free bass learners on any system. Here's a tiny sample:



For those who have the appetite for "contemporary" music, here's a piece that I really like, even though I'm not smart enough to know quite why.

​

 

[KLR]

One comparatively bland reason is range. The standard "big" converter range is 58 notes. That would mean 10 bass rows on quint bass. Now admittedly quint bass seems very much focused on piano accordion players, and for those a range of 48 notes is already luxurious. However, if you play duets, you have to reach treble range in both hands, and of course you still have to be able to hit the bass in the left.

Technical question: Why would 10 rows be needed? The chromatic models somehow fit such wider ranges into the standard 120. Could some kind of quint converter be devised which stacked rows of 3 octaves next to one another - if you follow. Something like this:

C1 C4
C2 C5
C3 C6

I assume mechanical limitations enter into play. I've read here about the specialized blocks needed for quint instruments, and it sounds like things would get out of hand.

Bill Palmer's son wrote here about how his dad played 160 bass instruments, too.

 

[JerryPH]

Just generally speaking:
1. I try to not dissuade anyone when they want to try out any form of free bass.
2. I encourage anyone that asks to try it out, ANYTHING that piques someone’s interest or desire to play is a good thing, I don’t care if it’s a Beltuna Matrix or beginner’s Parrot… play it!
3. If you feel quint is limiting, that even a master cannot do a clean scale, there is an exception to any rule… in the Quint world , that would be Nick Ariondo:

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

Hi John M,

The thing with playing scales on quint converter is that you are not bound by the finger patterns of stadella. There are whole new paths available, and they transform the experience entirely. This is where our friend on the quint review has really missed the mark badly. It is not his fault, there are simply other routes available. It just requires a little lateral thinking (or the scales sheet with finger work notated). When you choose the right paths, the 'crossover point' melts away, it becomes a flow. It is a real shame that some people will make a decision without knowing the correct finger pattern.

Quint has its own finger options. (the 'c' beside a number means counter bass)

C major on stradella: 4 - 2 - 4c - 5 - 3 - 5c - 3c - 4
C major on quint : 2 - 5c - 3c - 4- 2 - 5c - 3c - 2 (the last note on the 2nd finger is the start of the next octave).

After a little practice of the new finger pattern the results are quite remarkable. The octaves will fall into place. Every musical key will have it's own best finger pattern. This is where it is a good idea to have the right study materials - so you can know how to make the best choice. No point guessing it.

I am happy to take some time to try and help anyone who is open to the possibility of the quint system. It genuinely has some wonderful potential, and I think it's great.​

Hello, I've recently started messing about with quint and would be grateful for any resources you would share.

 

[Walker]

Technical question: Why would 10 rows be needed? The chromatic models somehow fit such wider ranges into the standard 120. Could some kind of quint converter be devised which stacked rows of 3 octaves next to one another - if you follow. Something like this:

C1 C4
C2 C5
C3 C6

I assume mechanical limitations enter into play. I've read here about the specialized blocks needed for quint instruments, and it sounds like things would get out of hand.

Bill Palmer's son wrote here about how his dad played 160 bass instruments, too.​

Hi KLR,

If I may explain...

Quint system is based on the fundamental principle of the circle of fifths.

The accordions with 120 bass: have 36 notes/3 octaves over three positions:

row 1&2 - C2 to B2
row 3&4 - C3 to B3
row 5&6 - C4 to B4

The accordions with 160 bass: have 48 notes/4 octaves over four positions

rows 1&2 - C1 to B1
rows 3&4 - C2 to B2
rows 5&6 - C3 to B3
rows 7&8 - C4 to B4

As "full size" piano accordions typically have:

41 notes (3 octaves plus a major third)
47 notes (3 octaves plus a major 7th)

this makes for a very balanced instrument range when paired with a 3 or 4 octave quint free bass converter.

It is also worth noting that each position (rows 1&2 etc) contains two rows of fifths, staggered (major third intervals between rows) - the same as fundamental & counter basses on the stradella accordion.

Where quint free bass has less notes compared to other designs, it should also be considered in the context that quint has more repeated notes than other designs. In fact, every note of the 12 semitone scale (arranged in fifths) is repeated 3 to 4 times (on every octave).

Instruments with 160 bass buttons are usually only played by masters, whereas the 120 bass button instruments are usually played by students or masters who are happy to stay within 3 octaves. Of course, both 120 bass and 160 bass instruments often have two free bass voices or sometimes three voices (160 bass), and therefore the range is extended by additional octaves with register changes.


The traditional heartland of the Quint free bass system is:

United States of America
Italy
New Zealand

However, there are some excellent quint players from other nations including Japan, France (famously R. Galliano), Germany, Austria and Canada (esp. Calgary).

Interestingly, in Canada, under the direction of Sir N. Antonio Peruch the Quint system accordion is studied by several students playing button accordion (treble: C system) with 64 notes and 160 bass in fifths. What are you Canadians like eh! ​

 

[dak]

Interestingly, in Canada, under the direction of Sir N. Antonio Peruch the Quint system accordion is studied by several students playing button accordion (treble: C system) with 64 notes and 160 bass in fifths. What are you Canadians like eh!

Well, a rare example of the free bass having significantly fewer notes than the right hand (64/48). The typical "full-size" converter has 58 bass notes, and it's rare for the treble to have more, with large (rather than mere full-size) CBA being the exception. Quint bass is one way to get there even with piano accordion.

 

[Walker]

Hello, I've recently started messing about with quint and would be grateful for any resources you would share.

David, I hope you enjoy your musical journey with a quint free bass accordion, and maybe the scales etc. I have sent will help you, a little bit, on the road.

All the best,
Stewart

 

[Walker]

If you feel quint is limiting, that even a master cannot do a clean scale, there is an exception to any rule… in the Quint world , that would be Nick Ariondo:

Nick Ariondo is a very, very good accordion player, but I would suggest that perhaps the most revered Italian master of the Quint system was the late Salvatore di Gesualdo.



Just sayin'

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

David, I hope you enjoy your musical journey with a quint free bass accordion, and maybe the scales etc. I have sent will help you, a little bit, on the road.

All the best,
Stewart

Yes, thanks so much. Looking forward to getting to work with those, and with the Palmer-Hughes books I ordered. I have a fantastic Sano Stereo 50 quint convertor with a mano reeds and cassotto that needs a full restoration. Someday I'll find time to do that. In the meantime, I can learn quint on my Roland.

 

[KLR]

Where quint free bass has less notes compared to other designs, it should also be considered in the context that quint has more repeated notes than other designs. In fact, every note of the 12 semitone scale (arranged in fifths) is repeated 3 to 4 times (on every octave).

Yes, I'm envisioning something where the redundancy would be done away with - where the first 6 ranks of buttons would be duplicated in the next 6 ranks, but an octave up. And the first rank would begin lower in pitch. That would cover a greater range, but it would throw anyone used to the traditional fingering...which is the big draw of the quint system in the first place.

This is just the inventor/tinkerer in me speculating about these things. In practice I'm not fixated on this stuff, being someone who just likes to have fun at home, by and large.

The Moschino system looks great on paper - it's a shame it wasn't adopted at the beginning.

 

[Walker]

Yes, I'm envisioning something where the redundancy would be done away with - where the first 6 ranks of buttons would be duplicated in the next 6 ranks, but an octave up. And the first rank would begin lower in pitch. That would cover a greater range, but it would throw anyone used to the traditional fingering...which is the big draw of the quint system in the first place.

System talk is fine, but for me, I just like listening to great musicians play. I try to see the good in all systems, but to be honest I really don't understand the need for more notes. I'm happy to use the ones I've got.

Regarding different systems, though it is less common to see button accordionists playing quint free bass, there are some notable examples of incredible musicians who do just that. Indeed, there was a stunningly brilliant accordionist who passed away in 2018 (in only his late 40s) by the name of Fabio Rossato. He played button accordion with quint system (160 bass). What a potent combination of keyboards in the hands of this powerhouse of a musician...

The late, great Fabio Rossato:

 

[Ffingers]

System talk is fine, but for me, I just like listening to great musicians play. I try to see the good in all systems, but to be honest I really don't understand the need for more notes. I'm happy to use the ones I've got.

Regarding different systems, though it is less common to see button accordionists playing quint free bass, there are some notable examples of incredible musicians who do just that. Indeed, there was a stunningly brilliant accordionist who passed away in 2018 (in only his late 40s) by the name of Fabio Rossato. He played button accordion with quint system (160 bass). What a potent combination of keyboards in the hands of this powerhouse of a musician...

The late, great Fabio Rossato:

Loved them.

However, the image reproduction technicians' abhorrent habit of horizontally reversing the photographers' images, consequently making them somewhat derisible; gets right up my proverbial nostrils.
Pure laziness, possibly combined with incompetence and total disregard for the viewers' intelligence.

 

[dak]

However, the image reproduction technicians' abhorrent habit of horizontally reversing the photographers' images, consequently making them somewhat derisible; gets right up my proverbial nostrils.
Pure laziness, possibly combined with incompetence and total disregard for the viewers' intelligence.

And then some poor unsuspecting AI gets trained on images siphoned off the net, and when asked to draw an accordionist gets all mixed up.