Piano learning vs. accordion

[Alans]

I have been studying the accordion on and off for four years and have completed Palmer Hughes book five with great
difficulty. I still can't play any of the pieces well and this is a constant source of frustration for me. I have also studied piano
on and off and have reached book two in the RCM syllabus. When I sit at the piano I never feel tension and I find I can
practise easily for at least an hour, but when I try and sit with the accordion 35 minutes is all I can handle. I am always
bewildered by the quick advancement I am able to make with the piano and the pleasure the practise gives me, although the accordion is my passionate and preferred instrument. I could never understand the difference and thought that perhaps it's because we can't see our fingers on the accordion whereas it's much easier to follow on the piano. But I'm at a point now where I don't often look at my fingers on the piano. So last night I started to wonder if my accordion frustration is based on
a few things-the instrument is heavy, I'm strapped in, and playing vertically opposed to playing flatly creates a situation
that is just that more frustrating. Any thoughts on this would greatly help. I'm so tired of Book five of Palmer Hughes that
I just want to be able to move on from it-but I don't want to do this until I really know the pieces in a satisfactory fashion.
I just keep running into the same problems over and over again. It's so frustrating.

 

[fjsys]

Sounds like you are fighting the instrument.
Could be a strap issue, or it could be that your accordion is not ideal for you.

What have you changed lately? As I always get told and tell others, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results"

Book 5 is a hard book, but at least the songs are enjoyable. (better than book 4 or book 6 which both are more theory and less enjoyable songs) Most don't get that far, so congratulations. If you have some questions/want some help with something in it let me know, I just went through it around 2 years ago.

What are you using to supplement the book? You should have at least one fun song that you are working on. There is a good book of "fun" songs that is around PH book 3 level called: "First 50 Songs You Should Play on the Accordion" I recommend looking and seeing if you would enjoy playing any of them in there.

Mostly I recommend just trying to change one thing so that it is less frustrating, because that is what is causing the short practice.

Remember with the method book unless you are planning to keep the song and play it out, good enough works fine.

HTH
Ben

 

[Alans]

thanks Ben, lots of helpful information in your post. Which book are you using right now? Do you think
the best approach is to just work for a long time on hands separately? Sometimes it feels like my fingers have glue on them. I'm going to look into the other book you suggested. I agree-maybe my practice needs one or two palmer hughes and one fun piece just to relax.
Best..

 

[fjsys]

Right now I am in book 7 trying to get the feeling right (and the chromatic run) for "La Cumparsita" (been working on it about 2 months now) and have just started the next song "Turkish Rondo". But this isn't the only thing that I am working on.
My work in progress pile is rather large at the moment, having to do with a teacher that over-assigns and a student (me) that will not say no to more. So currently my practice sessions include all of the following:
PH book 7 - "La Cumparsita"
PH book 7 - "Turkish Rondo"
PH book 7 - speed drill 23
two speed drills from "Road to Velocity for Accordion"
the key of E in "Piano Accordian Scales, Chords, Arpeggios"
a concert arrangement of "Clare de Lune" that I have been working on for a year and a half.
a Frank Marocco arrangement of "La Mer" - trying to get the feeling into it
an arrangement of "Volare" - just started.

As you can see quite a diverse set of things and helps to keep me interested and moving.

Yes sometimes my fingers are the same way, and in fact at the moment I feel that I have hit a "Dip" or plateau. (a good book for describing this is "The Dip: A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit (and When to Stick)" ) Mostly it is about resolve and not letting it beat me.

As to the hands separately, I am really not a big fan of this technique. Once I separate them, getting them back together is the hardest thing for me. So I don't even when my teacher suggests it.
Instead I recommend the short section and "5 in a row" method.
The method goes like this:
1. play through the piece identifying hard spots.
2. pick the first hard spot and divide it into one or two measures.
3. practice those one or two measures till you can't stand it anymore, then give it a rest and come back to it either tomorrow or after a 10-15 minutes doing something else.
4. you can move on when you can play it 5 times in a row perfectly. (and screwing up on the 5th puts the count back to 0)

From then you can put the piece back together and start over again.

For me it used to be a "3 in a row" method, but after sitting through a seminar on efficient practice by Mary Tokarski, she convinced me that "5 in a row" is a better number.

HTH
Ben

 

[Alans]

Thank-you so much for this wealth of information. I've heard Mary Tokarski play at several conventions over the years.
I've never met anyone doing book seven so congratulations on that. It's my dream to complete all ten books. I know a lot
of people would say what's the point, that the songs are archaic and that there are better things to play, but I just like
the progressive nature of the series and it's a goal to work towards. Have you ever looked through the syllabus of the Royal
conservatory of music in Canada? The pdf is free on-line and it was produced by the master player and educator Joe
Maccerollo. The problem with the syllabus is that after grade six you can only play in free bass and I think that kind of
stinks. really, how many hobbyists play free bass?
I will closely follow your instructions and hopefully one day I will be finished with this -----book five. Part of the problem
is that I studied with a very old woman (she had been teaching at the time for fifty years) and she didn't believe I should
ever move on to a new piece-so her philosophy has stuck with me and I need to break the message. I think there comes a point where you just have to move on-even if you're using Palmer Hughes eventually old problems resurface so if you don't
catch them early on they return later on.
I will definitely see if I can find the book The Dip you mentioned.
Have you ever heard of the book Never Too Late? I don't know how old you are but it's a wonderful book written by an adult
amateur about his picking up the cello late in his life. He says there is this feeling that you have to do these things when you
are young, but that's it just not true. I just want to reach book six before I die!!
I really appreciate the information you have provided. Best....How long have you been with your current teacher and do
you meet face to face?

 

[Alans]

I put a hold on The Dip at the library and ordered the accordion music book you suggested. Hopefully all of this will help.
thanks!

 

[fjsys]

Yes I have looked at the Royal conservatory stuff before and honestly it didn't interest me. The free bass thing is a turn off, and I really don't have an interest in being a conservatory accordionist. (more a folk and jazz type would suit me well.)

I had not heard of that book Never Too Late. I will have to see if I can find a copy of it. Being in my mid 40s I have given up dreams of being a virtuoso (not that I ever had any), and while my goal like yours it to get through book 10, for me it is just enough to be able to entertain my-self with it. (although others still enjoy my playing when I let them)
I think there are things that when we are older are harder to remember and learn, but with work anything is possible. (it just takes longer)

As for my teacher. Currently it is Paul Pasquali in Salt Lake City, Utah. I take a weekly lesson from him face to face and have been doing so for around 3 years now. He is around a 45 minute drive one way for me, so overall with an hour lesson I am investing 3 hours of my time in lessons with him. (not to mention the tuition for that hour lesson) Honestly I think it is worth it, but if he wasn't available at this point I would probably do a Skype lesson with either Mary Tokarski or Henry Doktorski and figure out a way to make it work. (I was actually contemplating this before starting lessons with Paul, but decided he was close enough to make the drive)

Also remember most importantly, we are all individuals and learn differently. If my instructions don't work for you, change them! There will be some combination of changes that works best for you, and you will know it when you find it. Then it will work for a while and you will have to change something again to make it work better. Small changes produce good results with dedication and I am sure that you can make it well beyond book 6. (after all book 8 has the best songs in it.)

Ben

 

[Dingo40]

I just got my copy of “The first fifty songs you should play on the accordion “: A$29-00, from Ron.
Pearce Music. (I noticed they had some more in stock)
Thanks for the tip!

 

[debra]

I started as a kid with the piano and about 5 years into it I added the accordion. I found that compared to real beginners I advanced much more quickly on the accordion, and right from the start learned not to look at the keyboard (ever), which is hard in the beginning, but it is a good thing to learn. My experience is more or less the opposite: I found the accordion easier to learn than the piano. It may have something to do with the repertoire and with (for the first many years) the simplicity of the Stradella bass versus trying that with the left hand on the piano.
When you leave the study books behind and start playing music you really want the experience should quickly become a lot more positive.
I am a bit puzzled about your issue with the weight and with playing vertically. I only ever had an issue with the weight with my 18kg Hohner Morino Artiste XS (button accordion) but not with the lighter instruments in the range of 12 to 15kg. The right posture and strap adjustment is important, and so is the use of a back strap (at least for me). Many people have the accordion positioned too far to their right. When you make the righthand strap longer and the lefthand strap shorter the whole accordion moves to your left and your arm can be in a much more comfortable position for playing. I see many accordion players with a 90 degree angle between forearm and hand and that is uncomfortable for the wrist and makes playing hard.
Keep trying! There is a lot of fun in playing the accordion that apparently is still to come for you.

 

[Alans]

Thanks Paul and Ben,I’ve never had my straps checked as I don’t have a car and rely on teacher’s accordions so maybe my set up needs to be improved. And adjusted.
I think you are correct Paul that I am too hung up on the method books. Maybe I just need to start to focus on pieces.

Ben,isn’t your teacher Paul the fellow who started the Las Vegas convention? Have you been?

I begin with a new teacher in a month who happens to be a world champion,a sensational player on you tube but I’ve learned the hard way that a great player doesn’t necessarily make the best teacher.

 

[fjsys]

Ben,isn’t your teacher Paul the fellow who started the Las Vegas convention? Have you been?

Yes that is him.

After a few years of not going I went last year. I hope to go again this year for the 20th anniversary.
Have you been?

I begin with a new teacher in a month who happens to be a world champion,a sensational player on you tube but I’ve learned the hard way that a great player doesn’t necessarily make the best teacher.

Good luck with your new teacher. Is it an in person deal or a Skype setup?

 

[Alans]

No I’ve never been to the Las Vegas convention but I hear it is sensational and I really want to go one day. I have been to the NAAin Dallas and it is excellent,lots of great workshops and very friendly people. I also went to the AAA but will never return. Nobworkshops and the least friendly people imaginable,extremely cliquey. You would think an organization that purports to support the lovebof the accordion would reach out to newbies,but I found them to be the weirdest most clannish bunch of folk. Great concerts though.
I haven’t started with a new teacher as I am working full time and going to school. I’m afraid I just won’t have time to practise right now. It’s a tough decision.

 

[george garside]

the main difference bwetween playing a piano and playing a piano accordion (treble side) is that

on a piano its how you hit the key that's important because it controls the volume - the harder you hit it the louder is gets.. and the note has limited duration and fades away all by itself!


on a piano accordion its how you let go of the key that's important so as to crisply end a note that would otherwise go on for ever as long as the bellows are being moved. The volume is controlled solely by varying bellows pressure and not by how the key is pressed.


As to the bass end the same applies - bellows pressure controls volume and the buttons need to be released 'smartly' to avoid the sound becoming turgid.


other that a piano keyboard is a piano keybord onboth instruments and plays in just the same way


The bass has to be learned but a study of a bass chart reveals that it is much easier to get the hang of than playing left hand on a piano


george

 

[Chadders]

Hi there Alans, it’s good to slog through the books. I use Anghazi myself, and it’s been very good on showing me what I should learn, improving dexterity etc. Also Hanon for accordion is good for dexterity. However if I think the key for me Has been to regularly ditch the books and play from lead sheets. A few chords and a melody line mean that you play it in a way that you are able to do easily rather than using over complex left or right hands. I love the accordion when played simply anyway, too much embellishment makes it sound gimmicky to my ear. Better still, working a tune a day by ear is a joy. It’s like doing a crossword puzzle or something, I start by writing out the lyrics, then finding the key and writing the chords above the words. In that way I don’t have to write out the notes on music paper, which I am hopeless at. The result is something I really enjoy and if I mumble the words as I go along and do the chord changes when the lyrics change my timing a ok as well (So my teacher says, but she might be being kind). Anyway, don’t get stressed by the books, learn from people around you, and just sometimes play within your ability. Take it easy, it’s much more fun!

 

[george garside]

or just listen to s tune (on CD youtube or whatever) until you can hum or whistle it andand  then have a go at playuing it ''from memory''  i.e. learn by ear and play from memory.  If you are at ease with several scales/keys you can  decide which key to play a particular tune in .  I often run through tunes in a veriety of keys  find that  eg I maight prefer the sound of a tune written originally in G when played in E.  

and its all good fun!

george

 

[george garside]

or just listen to s tune (on CD youtube or whatever) until you can hum or whistle it andand  then have a go at playuing it ''from memory''  i.e. learn by ear and play from memory.  If you are at ease with several scales/keys you can  decide which key to play a particular tune in .  I often run through tunes in a veriety of keys  find that  eg I maight prefer the sound of a tune written originally in G when played in E.  

and its all good fun!

george