Will learning the piano improve my accordion skills?

[Mr Mark]

Shortly after taking up the accordion I bought a beginner book on piano and worked through that to get me started. I found an older midsize midi keyboard for $5 at the thrift store and sampled VST's on my laptop, at least that way when I started with a not very good second hand accordion the instrument itself wasn't holding me back so much.

I still use a digital piano for a number of things like;
* when I want/need(neighbours) to use headphones
* to help facilitate working out parts by ear a little bit quicker
* for a change of pace when I am creating and thereby learning
* * putting in some hard repetitions with less overall physical fatigue and for when my back and body has had enough!

Having said all of that, I don't think I will actually pursue the piano itself any further. The keyboard is no reed replacement - the two instruments are very different (keyboard action, reed response, tuning effect) and to me the accordion is more about 'feel' being that you wear it, and it has more user generated input control than the piano; therefore it necessitates becoming more intimate with your instrument. You can't do this well unless you play it a lot.

 

[Siegmund]

Of course I didn't! And I learned my lesson. And I found it to be true.

Having 2 "mistresses" automatically doubled all related costs and forced me to split my time between the two, causing me to have TWO un fulfilled mistresses and one very frustrated and tired owner, the result was TWO very unsatisfying relationships.

I am reminded of an old joke that was current when I was a studying math in college:

An engineer, an accountant, and an artist debated whether it was better to have a wife or a mistress: The accountant said "a wife", and talked about stability and companionship and tax deductions. The artist said "a mistress," and talked about inspiration and passion. The engineer shocked them and said "both." He went on to explain: "My mistress assumes I am spending time with my wife. My wife assumes I am spending time with my mistress. And I can go down to the plant and get some work done."

Perhaps the artist needs to adopt that same approach if he wants to have more time to practice.

---

As to the original question about the wisdom of taking up another instrument: I think there are some gains to studying any instrument, in terms of knowing a wider variety of music, developing good practice habits that can carry over to any instrument, possibly getting new ideas for expressive playing. But if the goal is simply to get better at instrument #1 as fast as possible, the time spent on #2 is helping you less than additional time on instrument #1 would.

 

[saundersbp]

@saundersbp, Please may I ask, if an accordionist had the desire to take up the piano - what would you recommend as a good quality upright (house) piano brand/model?

Happy to give my personal opinion! You get a lot more for your buck too compared to accordions.

- Don't get anything electronic (lifespan, value, gimmicks and lack of dialogue between player and instrument). I somehow think you wouldn't anyhow!

- The sensible go-to are Yamaha's U series used, like the U1 or taller U3. Piano tuners love them, great action and build quality and loads available used imported from Japan. Standard practice pianos for conservatoires. I'd suggest something reconditioned from the 1980's or more recent Kawai equivalent. I'd buy from a reputable dealer and you'll find they hold their value well. Expect to pay £3-6k. Prices are higher on these because of supply problems on new instruments from pandemic/brexit. I'd avoid any of the cheap Yamaha B series instruments, build isn't the best and we've found they don't stay in tune well and are less than lovely to play.

- Having said that, I recently sold my own U3 for a 1980's English piano, yes we used to make them! The problem with the Japanese pianos is they tend to be on the brighter side tonally, although a skilled technician can tone them down to an extent. The better 1980's English pianos are equally well built but tend to be more mellow tonally and quieter - important for a domestic setup. Good instruments were made by Rogers, Chappell, Kemble and the least fashionable of all Bentley. Make sure it is a better model with a decent action system, good English ones often had the very good 'langer action'. Expect to pay £500 - £1,200 for something really nice and enjoy the saving simply because they aren't in fashion. I replaced my Yamaha U3 with a Bentley - lovely mellow tone and quiet, great action and a third practice pedal.

- There are also good used Chinese and E. European instruments but I'd consider these on a case by case basis.

For used Yamaha a good dealer would be something like coach house pianos, a big operation who send them all over the UK, we've had very good service on more expensive pianos (C series Yamaha grands). For English pianos you ideally need a piano mover or tuner that keeps their eye out and picks up decent instruments. We use https://pianotuningwestyorkshire.co.uk/ and have bought just about the entire stock as it comes up for schools and choirs but there must be equivalent people round you.

Finally I'd go with someone that knows about pianos when you look at them. Some of the dealers are basically piano graveyards with the odd decent instrument mixed in and a smaller one man operation is a great bet if you can find them for an English piano. These things also can pop up on ebay at bargain prices but I'd always take the piano tuner with me to give an expert view.

 

[Walker]

A goldmine of advice. Thank you!

 

[JeffJetton]

Happy to give my personal opinion! You get a lot more for your buck too compared to accordions.

- Don't get anything electronic (lifespan, value, gimmicks and lack of dialogue between player and instrument). I somehow think you wouldn't anyhow!

Ooooh... I'll have to step in here to defend the poor old electronic pianos!

Of course, if acoustic is what you have your heart set on, by all means go for it. Nothing like the real deal.

But... digital pianos are very, very good these days, particularly in the mid-to-high price range. Never needs tuning or other maintenance. Can be played very quietly or even silently with headphones. Doesn't require hiring movers to get it home, move it to another room, or take to a gig or friend's house to jam. As a bonus, can be hooked up to your computer as an input device for notation software (that's how I do all my accordion arrangements). And yes, you do get lots of different sounds. Even if you eschew the fancy stuff and just stick to "piano", it is nice to change it up from, say, bright Yamaha-style to warm German-style.

It's a trade-off, but one with a lot of upside to consider.

(I only wish the price of digital accordions were to one day be as cheap compared to acoustic as digital pianos are!)

 

[Walker]

Fair point @JeffJetton, but I'm an old fashioned laddie from the hills, and my electricity got cut off in the storm yesterday... I'll stick with acoustic please.

 

[saundersbp]

But... digital pianos are very, very good these days, particularly in the mid-to-high price range. Never needs tuning or other maintenance. Can be played very quietly or even silently with headphones. Doesn't require hiring movers to get it home, move it to another room, or take to a gig or friend's house to jam.

Ooooh... I'll have to step back in!
- An electronic computer piano won't last long enough to need maintenance
- They need electrical power all the time
- They don't have a fraction of the lifespan of a decent acoustic
- They depreciate like mad so not a great investment
- They don't talk back to you in the way an acoustic instrument does
- They are a little too perfect, cold and lack the organic feel of something felt and string with musical imperfection
- Your ear tires of the sound(s) more quickly
- The technology of loud speakers gives you a few sound sources whereas an acoustic is effectively its own loudspeaker for every single note

Go into any inner city high school and you'll find bust up, damaged and broken very expensive electronics by Yamaha and Roland. Meanwhile tucked away in a dirty corner is a trusty turn of the century german battleship upright piano. The keys have been written over by children, the wood is battered and scratched, numerous drinks have been spilt on it, but over a century later it still works and makes music.

In the spirit of hypocrisy, I actually have a high quality electronic piano in my little city flat that is played in emergencies. My job gives me access to the people that make these things - I was therefore surprised the better known brands all directed me towards Kawai as being the best. Kawai doesn't have the same market share in UK so it was a bit of a revelation.

 

[Siegmund]

But... digital pianos are very, very good these days, particularly in the mid-to-high price range....

(I only wish the price of digital accordions were to one day be as cheap compared to acoustic as digital pianos are!)

I would add that digital piano makers have put a lot of effort into replicating the feel of acoustic pianos - making sure the keys have just the right heaviness/stickiness to them, and respond realistically to how much pressure is used (e.g., very slowly depressing a key is silent, not just soft).

In the keyboard world the manufacturers draw a fairly sharp line between "digital pianos," aimed at reproducing acoustic pianos faithfully, and other digital keyboards, which are really more descendants of electric organ than piano. There doesn't seem to be a similar distinction made between faithful imitation of accordions, and generic accordion-shaped synthesizers.

I wish digital accordion makers would put a similar amount of effort into ensuring honest response (none of this "no need to switch the bellows direction if you don't want to" - you should not only need to move the bellows, but feel the difference in bellows resistance playing 1 reed vs. playing master.)

Edited to add: saundersbp does make good points about their shorter lifespan, faster depreciation, and localization of the sound to the speakers. (Same issues apply to digital accordions.)

 

[Walker]

I'd love to play a stringed instrument like cello or nyckelharpa but as an adult learner I have my hands full with just 1 instrument... although I count it as 1½ because of the converter

Aah the nyckelharpa...



The best thing since sliced pumpernickel!

Also proves what I suspected all along... there's no musical instrument that can't be improved by adding keys.

 

[Ffingers]

Aah the nyckelharpa...



The best thing since sliced pumpernickel!

Also proves what I suspected all along... there's no musical instrument that can't be improved by adding keys.

Particularly if you are the luthier and know how to play it well!

Clever young lady.

 

[Harrytulipan]

Aah the nyckelharpa...



The best thing since sliced pumpernickel!

Also proves what I suspected all along... there's no musical instrument that can't be improved by adding keys.

I found this:

 

[pentaprism]

My wife has been learning piano for quite some time. I tried piano a few times and gave up because after a while, I didn't get any better so I thought knew it was not for me. Below is my opinion/experience:

>> An electronic computer piano won't last long enough to need maintenance

I currently have 2 electronic pianos at home:

- A Roland KR-107, bought new in 2000. In 2015, some of the keys had uncontrollable volume so I replaced all the key sensors.

- A Yamaha CVP-705, bought new in 2017.

Both of them are working great, at least according to my wife.

In addition, when my daughter started college in 2013, I bought her a Roland F-110 (I think) to use at her apartment. Now she is in the last year of her Ph.D. program and is still using it.

As you see, the Roland lasted 15 years before it needed service. The set of sensors for all 88 keys cost less than $100. I took me about 3 hours (first time servicing a digital piano).

An acoustic piano, in 15 years, would take 28 tune-up services (twice a year, minus the first time and the last time). Let's say the service cost is $100 (I'm guessing here), the total cost would be $2800. The KR-107 would have cost (23 X 2 - 2) X 100 = $4400 by now.

The 6 year old Yamaha and the 10 year old Roland haven't cost me anything yet.

>> They need electrical power all the time

Correct. If we lose power, there are other things more important than a piano that I worry about. And not playing piano for a living, I can always do something else while waiting for the power to be restored. As I remember, the times that we lost electric power in the last 10 years can be counted on one hand.

>> They don't have a fraction of the lifespan of a decent acoustic

I'm not sure. The 23 year old Roland plays as well as when it was new. I wonder what a medium-range acoustic piano is like after 23 years.

>> They depreciate like mad so not a great investment

Who are we kidding? Investment? Do acoustic pianos not depreciate? How much is a $5500 acoustic piano worth after 23 years?

>> They don't talk back to you in the way an acoustic instrument does
>> They are a little too perfect, cold and lack the organic feel of something felt and string with musical imperfection

That depends. It will take a very long time for my wife or myself to know the difference between the way an electronic piano and an acoustic piano talks back to us.

>> Your ear tires of the sound(s) more quickly

This also depends. The Roland KR-107, for example, can play over different 500 sounds. Even piano sounds - it has probably more than 50. My wife has fun trying different songs in different sounds. In addition, it can do many things that make it less tiring (rhythm, record, ....).

>> The technology of loud speakers gives you a few sound sources whereas an acoustic is effectively its own loudspeaker for every single note

This is probably true. But does it make a difference? I don't think I can tell.

Also, computer learning tools work well with electronic pianos. My wife first learned with a program on PC, "Teach Me Piano." I had an old IBM ThinkPad (discarded by the company I worked for at the time) dedicated to the Roland. Later with the internet, she used "Simply Piano" on her iPad connected wirelessly to the Yamaha.

When I bought the Roland KR-107 in 2000, I asked for advice from a friend who was a piano instructor. He told me, "Unless you plan to spend at least $15,000 on a piano, don't get an acoustic." I'm glad I followed his advice.

 

[saundersbp]

I asked for advice from a friend who was a piano instructor. He told me, "Unless you plan to spend at least $15,000 on a piano, don't get an acoustic.

Lovely stuff! With such segacious advice available on varied subjects I've heard canny highlanders reply 'Yes, that's right, I see'....then make a prompt exit!
Seriously though, it's super you and your family have had such a happy electric journey. It's all about making music one way or another.

 

[saundersbp]

PS

‘I was swallowing the piano whole’: Stephen Hough on life as a prodigy – and playing for Jimmy Savile

In an extract from his new childhood memoir, the great concert pianist recalls falling in love with the instrument, pestering his parents for lessons … and the deception on Jim’ll Fix It

www.theguardian.com

This is an article which recently appeared in the UK press by Stephen Hough, one of world's leading pianists. I share the small distinction of the same town of birth, Warrington. For those not from the UK, Warrington is English equivalent of Venice, bisected by the picturesque waterways of the Manchester Ship Canal and the River Mersey (known locally as the Grey Danube). On the river banks as you enter this sleepy idyll is a statue of Oliver Cromwell, one of England's greatest liberal thinkers, pacifist and campaigner for religious freedom and tolerance. Well worth a visit on any UK itinerary in-between London and Edinburgh.

 

[JerryPH]

... may I ask, if an accordionist had the desire to take up the piano - what would you recommend as a good quality upright (house) piano brand/model?

I am as far from knowledgeable about pianos, but I do know that my niece initially did her homework and she found that the Yamaha brand of pianos has been nothing short of amazing for her piano studies.

In just doing a preliminary research, likely something like a Yamaha CLP725B would be a great place to start from (they are under $3000CA or around 1500 pounds... the currency not the weight... lol). That said, the same questions we answer for accordionists would apply for you in your piano searches. What is your budget? How far do you want to take it?

In a pinch people on an extreme budget and very limited future vision about their piano studies could TRY ONE OF THESE... lol

 

[Walker]

I wonder if there's a pianists forum somewhere and a bright eyed, enthusiastic member unwittingly asked - will learning the piano accordion improve my piano skills? Who knows... It's possible! (LOL) I can imagine the response he might get. YOU WANT TO PLAY AN ACCORDION!

Joking aside, the piano is a marvellous instrument and there are many similarities in fingering techniques that can cross the musical boundaries between the pianoforte world and the piano accordion world. But the accordion certainly has it's own particularities that I have quietly witnessed some pianists struggle with on PA. It's easy to spot the cues when you know what you're looking for... There is often a painful insensitivity towards the nuances of bellows control, 'hard fingers' on the keytops & buttons, and a general lack of poise in bringing all the elements tightly together. Sometimes I wonder if some pianists who start to learn the accordion do so just to enjoy a bit of 'piano lite'.

Of course, If you really want to be great on the PA, then practise it, study it and practise some more. I think of the 1950s American Jazz accordionists (Van Damme, Gumina etc.) They must have practised til the cows came home, to finesse their silky smoothness! Likewise, if you want to learn piano, then practise it, study it, and practise some more. Keep your head down like Gould and go for gold on the Steinway!

But actually, despite appearances, the piano accordion is so much more than the 'wee-cousin' of the piano, organ or harmonium. It is distinct and makes beautiful music in it's own right. Often the musical phrasing on piano accordion is so much more more shapely and gels better than when the piano attacks with percussive potency. Indeed, though they often argue like cat and dog, the real brother and sister instruments are actually the PA and CBA!

Anyway here's a wee tune by Olivia Steimel. @JerryPH I understand you quite like those accordions.



By the way Jerry, the Pianica looks fun... You just know, someone somewhere is playing Bachs Toccata & Fugue in D minor on two of them. Might require a bit of lung power though.

 

[JerryPH]

Olivia Steimel... my heart just melted.
(the accordion she used 'aint half bad either!)

Very clever use of those chin switches, there are more there than are evident... NICE!

 

[insert-witty-username]

a statue of Oliver Cromwell, one of England's greatest liberal thinkers, pacifist and campaigner for religious freedom and tolerance.

Here are some random quotes from the wikipedia article on Cromwell:
"Cromwell led a Parliamentary invasion of Ireland from 1649 to 1650."
"Cromwell's hostility to the Irish was religious as well as political."
"The extent of Cromwell's brutality[67][68] in Ireland has been strongly debated."

 

[Walker]

Here are some random quotes from the wikipedia article on Cromwell:
"Cromwell led a Parliamentary invasion of Ireland from 1649 to 1650."
"Cromwell's hostility to the Irish was religious as well as political."
"The extent of Cromwell's brutality[67][68] in Ireland has been strongly debated."

Wonderful @insert-witty-username, I love it when people show an interest in the history of the British Isles. There's more brutality, power-mad skulduggery and swashbuckling heroism than you could shake a stick at.

However, me thinks saundersbp was being humorous regarding Cromwell...

 

[insert-witty-username]

However, me thinks saundersbp was being humorous regarding Cromwell...

That's one of the main problems in e-mail/internet communication, when you don't hear the voice and don't see the face, you can arrive at remarkable misinterpretations (generally speaking).
By the way, I think you vastly overestimated my knowledge of British history, though I did remember that Cromwell would have made a fine Shakespeare villain if he hadn't had the misfortune of being born just a bit too late for that.