Please help identify the year/value of this Excelsior 922

[yc360]

Can anyone please help identify the year/value of this Excelsior 922? It claims to be LMMM with double tone chamber? Thought the musette ones don't have tone chambers because the chambers defeat the musette sound. Is this right? What can be a fair price for this? Looks sharp in the photos. I have an Excelsior model 610 CBA LMMM without the chambers. I like the clean sound of the 610 and the nimble buttons, feel just right to me. The weight and shape of the `610 is also excellent. Just the sound feels missing the weight somehow. Will this 922 be a big step up from the 610 sound quality wise? Could the 922 with the chambers add more body to its sound? I asked the seller for video clips but not sure how much that will help (who's testing it how thoroughly with what recording device, etc). I checked on the web. The 922 is supposed to be Excelsior's pro model. But only with 49 notes and without palm switch are kinda disappointing. The seller is in Bulgaria with pretty good reputation. Anyone has experience buying from east Europa on eBay before and how was it? Apologize for getting a little bit off the topic. Thank you in advance for your valuable opinions and advices. :ch

P.S. My Model 610 is missing the white plastic cover on the treble musette switch that looks just like those on this 922 in the photos. If you have one to spare, please let me know. Thanks again!

 

[debra]

You did notice that this one has a "flat" griff, right? This is common in Switzerland where it is always C system.
I would be surprised if a seller from Bulgaria had C system. So it's a bit odd to see a flat system coming from there.
Did you ask about C system or B system?

 

[Geronimo]

It's C system. In the third picture you can see black dots on some buttons to the right. Those are the "black keys". The pattern is consistent on those buttons where the perspective allows seeing the dots.

Bulgaria is a bit of an ambiguous country regarding the system. Most players I see there actually play piano accordion. There are some Ebay sellers there consistently selling a bunch of higher quality accordions of a variety that's large enough to make it unlikely they played them themselves. Ebay ratings tend to be good, sales numbers large, and not via lots of sales of low-quality items.

While I have little doubt that they get the instruments for quite less, it looks to me like the actual articles themselves are likely reasonably genuine and treated carefully enough to receive consistent ratings. No idea what the background story is.

 

[yc360]

Thanks for your insight!

 

[wout]

Looks so beautiful that dark red. You may have noticed its advertised wrong as lmmm it seems to be a 5 voice lmmmh with double cassotto. I would say its a realiable seller i 'know' him for longer now through adds. He has tons of excellent reviews and seems to be a honest dealer. I think its a nice offer . There is also a 4 voice titano converter for sale on ebay with double cassotto. Its b system on the right and c system on the left. Its only 2200 euros. Would almost switch to that because its such a beauty. Its just that i dont want to start over with accordion again.

 

[yc360]

Right, the seller told me about the error in description. I also found the correct information on the web about Model 922. I don't play converter and only play C system. Waiting the seller to send me a video clip he agreed to do and will make a decision. Got bitten by a big name German music seller before on a Morino Artiste VI N (looks good in photos but inside many of the reeds are damaged by reckless repair jobs in the past). This one looks good again in photos but I'd like to hear and see the instrument got played for real this time. Thanks for your comments and it's reassuring to hear a vote of confidence to the seller in this forum. :ch {}

 

[Geronimo]

Right, the seller told me about the error in description. I also found the correct information on the web about Model 922. I dont play converter and only play C system. Waiting the seller to send me a video clip he agreed to do and will make a decision. Got bitten by a big name German music seller before on a Morino Artiste VI N (looks good in photos but inside many of the reeds are damaged by reckless repair jobs in the past).

There are EU internal warranties that should have allowed for you giving it back, when done timely, even with no questions asked. But many reeds damaged? Are you sure you arent confusing this with one or several tuning jobs? That involves scratching material off the reeds, partly resulting in deep scratches. In particular when the instrument has been tuned lower than its original setup, this can look rather ugly. The main criterion is whether the reeds sound good and pitch accurate.

This one looks good again in photos but Id like to hear and see the instrument got played for real this time. Thanks for your comments and its reassuring to hear a vote of confidence to the seller in this forum. :ch {}

Oh, bitten with a Morino Artiste VI N? I got a Morino Artiste VI D for sale (the first I play in the Silent Night thread). There are a few reeds particularly in the extreme ranges that would want attention to response or pitch, but overall its pretty good. Compared with the Artiste VI N (built by Excelsior) this was originally built in 1960. Its lighter, has a déclassement for the L reed (with a cassotto-like effect), and because of the different reed block arrangement this implies, much more even sound quality across button rows. Also it has no register mechanics obstructing the sound dispersion on the treble side (the respective mechanics are situated below the keyboard tray). It also has a bass cassotto, giving powerful basses without masking the melody side too much. Its range is larger than the Artiste VI N (the piccolo H have a wraparound in their last octave) and it has thumb sliders for M, LM, MM, LMMH registers in addition to the normal 11 (blocky) register switches on top. Mechanics will be louder/clackier than current-day mechanics. Stepped button rows on both bass (good for bass runs) and treble.

But the haggling on that one would start at €3000. But Id make advance recordings within my capacities...

 

[yc360]

I am in California so the EU thing probably won't help me. You may be right, the damage to the reeds probably was done by some tuners before. Some of the reeds are sanded down so much they are missing corners at the tips. But been a hoarder myself, I still love the morino. Excelsior just got back to me today saying the 922 was built in 1983. So that makes it 35 year old. Any thing special about the excelsiors from the 80s? Excelsiors seem to have good reputation here. I still want to wait for the video the seller promised before making up my mind. Thank you so much for your informative comments.

 

[yc360]

I do have an old Artiste D bought online from Scotland. It is tuned really wet/Scottish and was really used. But again I love the unique sound of it. To really bring my Morinos back to life probably is beyond me. But I love playing them from time to time still, very much. The less than clean and perfect sounds from these older boxes tell difference stories... :ch

 

[yc360]

Your Artiste sounds quite different from my Scottish one. Guess the Scotts took the Morino and localized it. The switch markings are lmmh but the H was swapped out with a wet wet Scottish M. The bass is nothing like yours, mines is muddy and vague but very strong and forceful in its own way. The sound reminds of my younger days playing in the Chinese traditional orchestras. The Scotts are very big on the Morinos for some reason. {}

 

[Geronimo]

Your Artiste sounds quite different from my Scottish one. Guess the Scotts took the Morino and localized it.

Well, the tremolo tuning is often localized.

The switch markings are lmmh but the H was swapped out with a wet wet Scottish M.

Ive heard about instruments being changed like that. It also seems that reeds got swapped for others frequently, partly requiring amending the reed blocks. Basically at the time the instruments were originally built, accordion technicians seemed to consider them a whole lot more raw/starting material than an instrument is seen nowadays.

My main instrument actually is LMMM (but genuinely so as the register mechanism would not be useful for LMMH) with the range of an Artiste VID. In my book a good choice since it lets MMM cover a wide gamut (the Artiste IVD, the regular LMMM instrument, has a smaller range). But mine is most definitely not wet wet.

The bass is nothing like yours, mines is muddy and vague but very strong and forceful in its own way. The sound reminds of my younger days playing in the Chinese traditional orchestras. The Scotts are very big on the Morinos for some reason. {}

Huh. For the Artiste VID, I find the standard bass not muddy but rather defined with a rumbling quality. For my free bass sort-of Artiste, the bass fits more in line with the other notes and can hold its own reasonably well even without the accompanying M reed (which I can switch off in that instrument, something the proper Artiste models do not permit). I wouldnt call the resulting sound quality muddy either.

To some degree, instruments from that time have to be judged individually I think. Accordion production became more reproducible some decades later.

 

[yc360]

The bass sounds like it does probably duo to lack of maintenance or bad or purposeful modification. Got another Morino M PA from eBay. It's bass is also messed up like that. Again looks clean for its age but the sound is no more. Buying online is hit and miss. I have both. From where I am, online is the only way. This 922 looks promising. But I will wait for the video. Thanks again!

 

[Geronimo]

The bass sounds like it does probably duo to lack of maintenance or bad or purposeful modification. Got another Morino M PA from eBay. Its bass is also messed up like that. Again looks clean for its age but the sound is no more. Buying online is hit and miss. I have both. From where I am, online is the only way. This 922 looks promising. But I will wait for the video. Thanks again!

Well, one thing that can easily happen with old accordions is that the wax is shot. Its often somewhat apparent from closeups whether the wax is flaking off at the edges of the reed plates.

In that case, the reed chamber leaks air. That makes for a weak response. Old instruments often have the reed plates fixed with nails before getting waxed (later, the wax was used as the only fixation). Which means that the reed plates will not just fall off when the wax is completely done for.

Depending on the quality of woods and instrument, reed blocks and filling may warp, again leading to air leaks (this can cause wrong notes and/or reed sets to sound but usually the amount of dead air is not sufficient for that).

And of course, valves that dont close properly also cause air to leak. Most air leaks (including defective opposing valves) can cause the pitch to rise, thus also affecting how well in tune the instrument is.

 

[Geronimo]

And of course, valves that dont close properly also cause air to leak. Most air leaks (including defective opposing valves) can cause the pitch to rise, thus also affecting how well in tune the instrument is.

With particular regard to old Morinos: their bass valves are genuine leather which shrinks over time. My main instrument likely still has the original valves: I had to remove and reglue basically all of the bass and high bass valves to make sure they cover the reed slot sufficiently.

 

[debra]

Looks so beautiful that dark red. You may have noticed its advertised wrong as lmmm it seems to be a 5 voice lmmmh with double cassotto. I would say its a realiable seller i know him for longer now through adds. He has tons of excellent reviews and seems to be a honest dealer. I think its a nice offer . There is also a 4 voice titano converter for sale on ebay with double cassotto. Its b system on the right and c system on the left. Its only 2200 euros. Would almost switch to that because its such a beauty. Its just that i dont want to start over with accordion again.

Someone who had an accordion with B system on the right and C system on the left told me that was a really bad idea. I dont know why people ever though it would be good and produced (and taught) them, but even at 2200 euro I would pass this deal up.
The Excelsior though... it is likely their own variation of the Hohner Morino VN (or VS) that Excelsior also produced.

 

[yc360]

Right, deBra. I suspect it is a Morino alike as well, weight, look including the buldge behind the keyboard, etc. Only Excelsior 922 has several fake buttons but Morino doesn't. So I suppose they don't have the same keyboard and reeds at least for the treble side? Could this 922 has the same bass machine as Morino?
What is difference between Morino V N and XI N by the way? I damaged Morino is XI N, not a V N. :ch

Also quantity wise, which is better built, Excelsior's own 922 or Morino?

 

[Geronimo]

Right, deBra. I suspect it is a Morino alike as well, weight, look including the buldge behind the keyboard, etc. Only Excelsior 922 has several fake buttons but Morino doesnt. So I suppose they dont have the same keyboard and reeds at least for the treble side? Could this 922 has the same bass machine as Morino?

Unlikely. The Morinos were built to spec, but Excelsior made its own instruments as well. I have an Excelsior with Midi. The 5 reed sets of my Morino Artiste VID bass (admittedly without Excelsior involvement, but I doubt that they were free to mess with the disposition) start at E1, E2, E3, E4, E5 respectively. The 5 reed sets of my Excelsior start at A1, A2, F♯3, C4, C5 respectively. That kind of disposition with one chord reed shifted by a half-octave is typical for Italian instruments and quite untypical for German ones (Golas are a class of their own however).

Also quantity wise, which is better built, Excelsiors own 922 or Morino?

Quantity wise? At any rate, Excelsior was likely picked as a high quality builder, so Morinos should compare to their upper quality range. But they are built to different sound ideals. If you want the sound of a Morino, youll not likely be happy with an Excelsior model and vice versa, never mind that they were built by the same manufactorer over some course of time.

 

[debra]

...At any rate, Excelsior was likely picked as a high quality builder, so Morinos should compare to their upper quality range. But they are built to different sound ideals. If you want the sound of a Morino, youll not likely be happy with an Excelsior model and vice versa, never mind that they were built by the same manufactorer over some course of time.

That also surprised me. In 1999 we visited the Frankfurter Musikmesse and tried a Hohner Morino VS at the Hohner booth and then an Excelsior equivalent model (5 reed, cassotto) and while they looked very much alike and played very much alike the Excelsior had a clearly different sound.

The Artiste VI D versus VI N and S story is a clear indication that Excelsior was given too much freedom in changing the design, with as a result that the balanced sound and mellow L reeds became an unbalanced sound (different rows of the CBA sounding differently). There was an experiment with cassotto (a friend of mine has a prototype Artiste VI S with cassotto) but it never went into production. We of course cannot reproduce the communication between Hohner and Excelsior regarding whether to produce this or not, but clearly outsourcing production is often deliberately kept a mystery.

 

[yc360]

Always interesting to read :ch your informative remarks! Thanks to you all and Merry Christmas! :ch

Maybe it has been asked be. But I couldn't find the thread. What is the difference between hohner Morino XI N and VI N? Thanks :ch

 

[Geronimo]

Always interesting to read :ch your informative remarks! Thanks to you all and Merry Christmas! :ch

Maybe it has been asked be. But I couldnt find the thread. What is the difference between hohner Morino XI N and VI N? Thanks :ch

The Artiste VI D has 62 sounding notes (on the first 3 rows, B♭2 to B♭7, C system instruments have an additional A2 in the fourth row and C system instruments have B7),

The Artiste VI N is cut down to 53 sounding notes. The Artiste XI N has 56 sounding notes. Neither of them has the thumb sliders (for selecting one of LM, MM, M, LMMH) that the Artiste VI D has. They have 120 basses instead of the 127 of the Artiste VI D (but those are mostly for optical reasons). The Artiste VI D has a déclassement (cassotto-like sound) on the L reeds and is organized LMMH (4 reeds in treble), the Artiste VI N has most of one button row mellowed (WTF?), the Artiste XI N has a true cassotto for L and M reeds and LMMMH organization. The XI N also has 5 bass registers instead of the 3 of the VI N (and VI D).

Basically, the Artiste VI N is tonally inconsistent and is quite the step down from the Artiste VI D. The Artiste XI N is more consistent but is a 5-reed heavyweight. Its basically Excelsiors pitch at a successor of the Artiste VI D that makes some sort of sense and sort-of is an Artiste X D spinoff without the free bass. The treble side is pretty much the same as that of an Artiste X N.