Please help identify the year/value of this Excelsior 922

[yc360]

A somewhat related question that has always bugged me: why is the bass can sound so clean and well defined as in these following video clips (and so many more found in the Tube):

<YOUTUBE id=gzx59SnLAqU url=></YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id=Th_28KDLyAE url=></YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id=Cl6NAdA3www url=>https://youtu.be/Cl6NAdA3www</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id=AJs4N8Y0BMQ url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJs4N8Y0BMQ>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJs4N8Y0BMQ</YOUTUBE>

while can also sound so blasty and coarse here:
<YOUTUBE id=IuGFAJiU1OI list=WL t=115 url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuGFAJiU1OI&list=WL&t=115s&index=49>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuGFAJiU1OI&list=WL&t=115s&index=49</YOUTUBE> (The sellers demo)

Aside of the fact the last one doesnt have a qualified CBA player and so on, the difference in the bass sound quality is unmistakable. Is this due to the lack of good maintenance on the Excelsior 922 comparing to the beautiful sounding clips from the first few clips?

By the way, most of the demo clips done by LibertyBellows sound like the last one - bad bass, rough, muddy and not well defined as the first three clips, by this I mean the bass reeds sound separated and not very symphonical, each reed sounds on its own.

My accordions are unfortunately all closer to the bad one as in the last clip than the first few good ones, more or less. Is this because of tuning? By the way, I found my Morino XI N sounds uncanningly like this Excelsior 922, on both the treble and bass sides. I dont think it has much to do with the recording devices: the accordions I bought from LibertyBellows sound much like the recordings when playing them myself for real. I simple havent found an accordion that has the bass sounds as tight and tidy with clean and well defined root notes as heard in the first few clips. The first one is by Geromino himself. I am very impressed! This is the Morino sound I heard from the German Accordion Museum website. So I thought all Morino should sound like this. But now I have four PA/CBA Morinos, none of them have this desirable Morino sound I expected. Would a good tuning job fix this?

Just to further prove my point, heres a few more LibertyBellows clips, in which the featured accordions arent exactly cheap at all. And to be fair, I picked the clips where the demo players are certainly over qualified for such job.:
<YOUTUBE id=MTeKPk0p6po url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTeKPk0p6po>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTeKPk0p6po</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id=t0D0OcS3lb4 url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0D0OcS3lb4>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0D0OcS3lb4</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id=YGuj0Z-3jzk url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGuj0Z-3jzk>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGuj0Z-3jzk</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id=b9nVqFbvQ-k t=4 url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9nVqFbvQ-k&t=4s>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9nVqFbvQ-k&t=4s</YOUTUBE>

Could this because of my ears? Can anybody else hear the difference especially on the bass side like I do? The deep clean well defined bass sound in the first group vs the muddy shallow even blasty and coarse on the others.

Just want to hear your insights on this. Thanks! :ch

 

[Geronimo]

One thing that is certainly relevant that making a good recording of accordion is hard. Now if you dont want to bother with video editing and its ilk, youll just use the builtin mic(s) of the video cam. Morino accordion basses start at E1 which is about 41Hz. Video cams tend to use tiny electret mic capsules which dont shine in disciplines like SNR (signal to noise ratio), directivity, impulse response and are usually recorded with a not so healthy bout of compression. On the other end of the spectrum are large diaphragm condenser mics (which you cannot usually use with a video cam without additional devices and cabling and often editing) that are prone to deliver quite harsher variants of tremolo than the original because of partial vibration modes.

My favorite recording arrangement currently is two omnidirectional small-diaphragm Oktava-012 condenser mics at floor level (this is a hard floor) to my left and right. Floor level reduces the amount of reverbation to signal that tends to be bad for omnidirectional mics and gives a better bass response. The omnidirectional capsules tend to be most faithful to the original, particularly important when I am trying to play nice with tremolo rather than just pulling it in for fortissimo. Without tremolo in play, one can work with other mics delivering a more poignant character.

Here are some media (those were done for discussing sound quality with a friend of mine so there are lots of mistakes in play), the first two are the same performance, the first with the video cam mics, then with two Røde NT1A (large diaphragm condenser). Naturally, the second features much less noise/hiss. I dont like the treble/bass balance and the NT1A overemphasizes the plastic valve noise component in those recordings as far as I am concerned. Valve noise certainly is part of this accordions non-cassotto sound, but its better integrated in the original sound than the recording.

<YOUTUBE id=8kwes6pf7b8 url=>[media]</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id=N7zcoz2IYuE url=>[media]</YOUTUBE>

Generally, this microphone placement does not deliver the best sound as opposed to the version on the floor (sorry, no recording for this piece). Here is the version with omnidirectional Oktava mic capsules:
<YOUTUBE id=bgoaft5Ot1Q url=>[media]https://youtu.be/bgoaft5Ot1Q[/media]</YOUTUBE>
And this tries using a cardioid on the left and a hypercardioid on the right (both Oktava) which works somewhat better for this mic placement. It has more problems with the low tremolo passage close to the end, though.
<YOUTUBE id=wGMRLoZ97qg url=https://youtu.be/wGMRLoZ97qg>[media]https://youtu.be/wGMRLoZ97qg[/media]</YOUTUBE>
So its really tricky to capture a differentiated accordion sound well. You can hear a number of differences here, but all-in-all I think the mic placement here is problematic and could have been improved by going to the floor and using omnis (which is what I did for the Silent Night stuff, partly using the same accordion). Not particularly intuitive.

 

[yc360]

Thank you so much for the detailed insight! So the difference in sound quality I heard is more of recording than the instrument itself? This reminds that my grand piano sounds a lot better when I stand by the side listening to other people play it than sitting on the bench my self. Fact of life...

 

[Geronimo]

Yes and no. Different instruments will sound different on the same equipment, be the equipment good or bad. But how much they will sound different and how apparent the instruments' qualities are and how similar the recordings are to a live performance: that's quite dependent on the recording equipment.

And "accurate" still is not the same as "desirable", though obviously it's a desirable property if you want to judge which instrument will sound nice live.

Some sounds are more robust to differences in recording equipment, some less. I have a Leslie-like box here where I exchanged the horn driver from one with phenolic membrane (I think sth like 450Hz to 8000Hz or whatever) with titanium (800Hz to 20000Hz), exchanging the crossover as well, because it wasn't really working as I wanted with virtual accordion (1st generation Roland FR-1b). It turns out that using the rotor even in slow mode ("chorus") will make the high range "tear off" the horn so I'd likely had done better to install fixed high range horns rather than extend the range for the existing (optionally rotating) horn.

Now accordion and bandonion and such immediately sounds awful as soon as you start the rotor. Orchestral and organ sounds, in contrast, are quite robust in overall quality and rather gain from the rotary speaker. So the brittleness of accordion sound quality under less-than-optimal conditions appears not to be unique to my own good acoustic instrument but is also observable with more generic sampled versions.

 

[yc360]

Growing up with all the very low quality recording of the low quality accordions, I always preferred the live sound over the recording. Now it seems with the modern electronic and wizardry, recording can do the plastic surgery magic on the instrument. But I only play for fun mostly for my ears. So I am waiting on body electronics to enhance my ears :roll: Thank you again for your very informative insight! :ch

 

[Geronimo]

Ok, some egg on my face: I did not actually listen to your recordings before pontificating. I don't actually find that "seller's demo" bad: the instrument actually sounds rather well-defined and as if it's good for quite a bit of play (I mean, I find the tremolo overdone, but for one thing that's the hardest to capture well, for another, people have different music styles).

So I do think that there is also some difference in instruments coming in. Note that the Morinos are deep, starting at E1 in the standard bass. That makes for a lacklustre response which is offset by pairing the bass with an obligatory high bass one octave higher. Melody lines are usually carried by the high bass while the low bass delivers substance.

Then the instruments I show off here have bass constructions particular to the early Morino series: the Artiste VID has a bass cassotto which is quite bulky, and later Morino models have been built by excelsior and just omitted it. Then the Artiste models have an open bass construction with quite a bit of sound letouts. I don't know about the 922, but my own Excelsior here has a closed bass case where the sound gets out through the case and the buttons. I don't like the sound from near, and frankly, the recording your seller demonstrates does not sound like that: it does rather sound like it's reasonably open.

Then a low bass requires good bellows technique, or it will not respond nicely. You have to adapt your play to give it the air it needs when it needs it. Frankly, the little I can discern of your seller's video sounds like proper play would definitely make for a nicer bass sound. The treble is more irritating to me since it sounds like the notes have uneven sound quality (the pattern is not per-button-row though). That tends to happen with some cassotto constructions but I prefer it when it doesn't.

That this is clearly audible also rather insinuates that the recording has been made with equipment able to give a reasonably clear picture.

Then both of the Morinos I demonstrate are similar in the bass in that the bass reed plates are screwed on leather sealings instead of mounted in wax. There is a lot of controversy about this, but in my opinion, that does maintain a crisper sound because it gives the reed plates few but well-defined fixtures to the reed block (namely the screws).

The real strength of a low bass like this is with long bass notes (possibly interrupted: once such a bass reed is vibrating, it does not stop the moment no air passes through, so an interrupted bass note will resume with a good attack).

So there definitely is more involved here than iffy recording quality.

 

[yc360]

The same guy in the demo clip fumbling on the CBA was flying on a Weitmeister Supita PA he also demoed. Unbelievable The same seller also has a pretty decent looking Morino XI N side by side for sale to the Excelsior 922 just by coincidence I guess Thanks again for your insight as always! :ch

 

[Geronimo]

The same guy in the demo clip fumbling on the CBA was flying on a Weitmeister Supita PA he also demoed. Unbelievable

Not necessarily on the treble side, but Id have expected a more clueful demonstration of the bass side then.

The same seller also has a pretty decent looking Morino XI N side by side for sale to the Excelsior 922 just by coincidence I guess Thanks again for your insight as always! :ch

Thats an Excelsior Morino (Artiste XIN I presume). It will have a stronger cassotto sound (due to its genuine cassotto construction with two reed sets in cassotto) than the Morino Artiste VID I demoed, quite more weight, a full three-reed tremolo but less range, and a weaker and less versatile bass sound though with 5 rather than 3 registers. I have not played either instrument model for sale, so I cannot really vouch whether Id like the Excelsior-built Excelsior 922 better than the Excelsior-built Morino Artiste XI N.

 

[Morne]

Sorry for taking this slightly off-topic:

Then the instruments I show off here have bass constructions particular to the early Morino series: the Artiste VID has a bass cassotto which is quite bulky, and later Morino models have been built by excelsior and just omitted it.

Then both of the Morinos I demonstrate are similar in the bass in that the bass reed plates are screwed on leather sealings instead of mounted in wax.

Youve mentioned your bass cassotto before and Ive been meaning to ask you if you have some photos of it. I recall having seen some photos of your Morinos bass mechanism before, but I dont remember exactly where (Musiker Board or Weltmeister Forum?) or if you showed the bass reed blocks.

My 1953 Morino IV M has this (lowest reeds are screwed onto leather):
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/download/file.php?id=1675&mode=view>

I would imagine that construction wasting too much space in a free bass instrument, though.
Some users on musiker-board.de have also shown that construction in models built in the late 40s.

The other reed blocks Ive seen:
- Elongated block used in (Hohner-made) free bass Morino VI Ms (like my 1959 one)
- a fat block with the air channel bent 180 degrees used in (Hohner-made) Morino IV Ms after my 1953 one (Umlenkstimmstock)
- 90 degree bent block used in Excelsior-made Morinos (Winkelbass)

Does yours have something different altogether or is it one of those?

 

[Geronimo]

Sorry for taking this slightly off-topic:

Then the instruments I show off here have bass constructions particular to the early Morino series: the Artiste VID has a bass cassotto which is quite bulky, and later Morino models have been built by excelsior and just omitted it.

Then both of the Morinos I demonstrate are similar in the bass in that the bass reed plates are screwed on leather sealings instead of mounted in wax.

Youve mentioned your bass cassotto before and Ive been meaning to ask you if you have some photos of it. I recall having seen some photos of your Morinos bass mechanism before, but I dont remember exactly where (Musiker Board or Weltmeister Forum?) or if you showed the bass reed blocks.

This is mixing up two different issues since I am talking about two different instruments. The bass cassotto is in the Morino Artiste VID standard bass. Thats an instrument I want to sell, and its a regular model.

Here is a photograph of that bass:

The other reed blocks Ive seen:
- Elongated block used in (Hohner-made) free bass Morino VI Ms (like my 1959 one)
- a fat block with the air channel bent 180 degrees used in (Hohner-made) Morino IV Ms after my 1953 one (Umlenkstimmstock)
- 90 degree bent block used in Excelsior-made Morinos (Winkelbass)

The Morino Artiste VI D has the second of these options (Umlenkstimmstock), counting as bass cassotto. You can see the low bass reeds on the right, and their reed chamber is folded in the large reed block. The high bass is on the left side of that same block and has straight reed chambers.

Now my main instrument is the one with the free bass. This looks like the following:

Here you can see the three reed blocks for the free bass (doubling as chord reeds) and the bass reed block below. The only visible reed plates on the bass reed block are the low bass reeds: the high bass reeds are on the opposite side of the reed block. They start right after the bellows folds end, so you need to remove the bellows to even see them: this side of the instruments inside goes quite deeper than the area around the other reed blocks. So the bass reed chambers have a bit of tunnel before reaching their pallets (which are rather close to the end of the instrument as opposed to the chord/baritone pallets which are obscured by the main bass mechanics when looking from the other side).

So thats more or less the first of your options. However, in the usual free bass instruments, the low bass is shut off using two sliders in the middle of the reed block between the low and the high bass layers, with the high bass being permanently on. In contrast, in my reed block there are flaps for closing off either low or high reed sets. That allows using the low reed set alone, or switching off non-chord basses altogether.

 

[yc360]

Just got the Excelsior today in perfect condition. It does sound like the Morino when the Morino in perfect condition I guess. The Excelsior is much more manageable in size and shape. But the Morino sounds quite a bit louder and stronger. Excelsior 922 with the 5/5 arrangement is not that much louder than the smaller non-cassotto 611, with the same clean and sweet sound. Guess this must be the Excelsior preference by design. I can only imagine what the Morino xi n sounds like when it was new! The Bulgaria guy Asen is great, very responsive and packed perfect. He and the liberty bellows are the best! :ch {} :b

 

[Geronimo]

Just got the Excelsior today in perfect condition. It does sound like the Morino when the Morino in perfect condition I guess. The Excelsior is much more manageable in size and shape. But the Morino sounds quite a bit louder and stronger.

Uh, when the Morino is in perfect condition, it sounds less loud and strong?

Excelsior 922 with the 5/5 arrangement is not that much louder than the smaller non-cassotto 611, with the same clean and sweet sound. Guess this must be the Excelsior preference by design. I can only imagine what the Morino xi n sounds like when it was new! The Bulgaria guy Asen is great, very responsive and packed perfect. He and the liberty bellows are the best! :ch {} :b

Great to hear. Cassotto does not really make stuff louder in my opinion, but rather more distinctive. That makes the cassotto voice stand out better without plastering over the other voices.

I just noticed that I scattered the discussion and photographs of various bass parts all over at best marginally related threads. Maybe I should make a topic for them and just point to that instead. Ill probably attempt to do so in a few days when I got more time.

At any rate, great that you got your Excelsior. When youve gotten the hang of it, maybe post some example recordings?

 

[debra]

Just got the Excelsior today in perfect condition. It does sound like the Morino when the Morino in perfect condition I guess. The Excelsior is much more manageable in size and shape. But the Morino sounds quite a bit louder and stronger. Excelsior 922 with the 5/5 arrangement is not that much louder than the smaller non-cassotto 611, with the same clean and sweet sound. Guess this must be the Excelsior preference by design. I can only imagine what the Morino xi n sounds like when it was new! The Bulgaria guy Asen is great, very responsive and packed perfect. He and the liberty bellows are the best! :ch {} :b

Great news that you got the Excelsior in perfect condition. For a large part these Excelsiors are identical to the corresponding Morino models (no wonder as Excelsior produced the Morino contrary to the belief of many people that Hohner made the Morino N and S series themselves). There are subtle differences. In 1999 both Excelsior and Hohner were at the Frankfurter Musikmesse (just before Excelsior was absorbed by Pigini I guess) and I got to try an equivalent Excelsior and Morino and they did not sound completely alike. There is something about the Morino sound that the Excelsior does not have, but so far I have not been able to detect (from a Morino, looking inside) what it is that generates that specific sound.

 

[yc360]

At least for what I see, the Morino XI N is a lot bigger, heavier and thicker than the Excelsior 922. From the paper specs I found on the web, they are only maybe a couple inches difference in each dimension. But when playing it, the difference is quite significant for me. The reeds do sound similar. But in the Morino box, they sound much stronger and louder. The Excelsior makes them sing rather nicely with lower volume. So much the Italians can do with these wood boxes and little metal reeds! Amazing! :ch And the Russians too :lol: :lol:

 

[debra]

At least for what I see, the Morino XI N is a lot bigger, heavier and thicker than the Excelsior 922...

Right! WIth the CBA instruments there are large differences. When we tried Excelsior versus Hohner Morino it was with PA instruments that were virtually identical. (Same size, weight, configuration.) But indeed the Hohner seemed to have more power and the Excelsior was more like singing... interesting how two boxes that are virtually identical can have such different sound.
When you listen to recordings from the Baltic Excelsior Quintet (many available on YouTube) you can clearly hear that the sound they produce is very different from what it would have been with morinos.

 

[Geronimo]

Right! WIth the CBA instruments there are large differences. When we tried Excelsior versus Hohner Morino it was with PA instruments that were virtually identical. (Same size, weight, configuration.) But indeed the Hohner seemed to have more power and the Excelsior was more like singing... interesting how two boxes that are virtually identical can have such different sound.

Possibly plastic valves vs leather valves are part of the story?

 

[wout]

I can be wrong about the valves but i think the excelsiors and morinos have the same valves except on the lower reeds where they have leather with contrapelli whilest morino has leather with plastic. Also i think excelsior uses handmade vsmorino TAM and the morino has that metal box behind it.

 

[Geronimo]

I can be wrong about the valves but i think the excelsiors and morinos have the same valves except on the lower reeds where they have leather with contrapelli whilest morino has leather with plastic. Also i think excelsior uses handmade vsmorino TAM and the morino has that metal box behind it.

I think there was a Morino Deluxe for newer models with better reeds and possibly also with the Umlenkstimmstock back that was otherwise rationalized away. The Morino Retro model and its themed Morino Avsenik variant might also have that. But you probably could order the Morino models with handmade reeds (I think typically Cagnoni) at any point of time, just without model name change. But Hohners own Artiste reeds were actually not the worst.

 

[yc360]

I totally love the Excelsior singing voice! Its quite a bit nuanced to my ears than the modern Jazz tuned straight sound, thats just me of course. I have a very old Morino M PA that is quite flat. But even that sounds more colorful than the nearly new Borsini K10 CBA. The Borsini got a very powerful and loud strong straight flat sound. Just doesnt have the metalic color of the old Morino PA somehow. Maybe its the wood box or the reed block those reeds imbedded on... All laws of physics and the master craft mens creative genius of course. But I must say that I love the feel and response of the mushroom buttons on the Borsini K10 the best, plus its outstanding weight balance. Just dont feel like playing a full size 120 bass 4/5 cassotto instrument with the K10. I have a Victoria about the same size as the K10, cassottos and all. It sounds a lot mellower and weighs a big more than the K10. They are really a pleasure to play. Excelsior is also great. Worse is the Morino N and the old Artiste D for me, too big and bulky. I need to grow a few inches in all dimensions to handle them effectively I think. Too late for this life time of mine :hb :hb :hb {} Based on my own experience so far, seems the old boxes have more colorful and nuanced sound but the button actions seem to be better on the newer instrument. Could be that the mechanical action part fairs the worst over time, the springs and joints and all. To replace all of those probably would cost as much as a new instrument? :ch

 

[debra]

I can be wrong about the valves but i think the excelsiors and morinos have the same valves except on the lower reeds where they have leather with contrapelli whilest morino has leather with plastic. Also i think excelsior uses handmade vsmorino TAM and the morino has that metal box behind it.

I think there was a Morino Deluxe for newer models with better reeds and possibly also with the Umlenkstimmstock back that was otherwise rationalized away. The Morino Retro model and its themed Morino Avsenik variant might also have that. But you probably could order the Morino models with handmade reeds (I think typically Cagnoni) at any point of time, just without model name change. But Hohners own Artiste reeds were actually not the worst.

The reality is that when these older Excelsior and Morinos were built they all had leather valves with (metal) contrapelli (also called boosters). But over the years as part of maintenance and repair more and more of them had valve replacements and thats where the newer valves with leather for the first layer and then plastic boosters came into the scene. Believe me, if there is any difference in sound it is mostly due to the age difference that causes the leather to stiffen and not due to the difference in material. As long as the vibrating reeds do not hit the valve (when it does not open far enough) and as long as the valve does not start vibrating itself there should be no real effect on the sound.
As far as I have seen on accordions to date the older Morino N series used the Umlenkstimmstock and the newer Morino S series did not. Also, The Morino N series was equipped with Bugari (tipo a mano) reeds and the Morino S series was equipped with Cagnoni (tipo a mano) reeds. There is a slight subtle difference in timbre between the N and S and I think the differences between the Bugari and Cagnoni reeds are mostly to blame for that. (People generally prefer N over S.)
A friend of mine has a Morino IV M (PA) which may be the last series completely or mostly built by Hohner itself and over the years it had all leather valves replaced (the smaller ones with just plastic) and that did no harm to the sound. The IV M is still the most genuine Morino in my book and shows that what Excelsior produced later for Hohner (the N and S) did not really reproduce what Veniziano Morino designed originally.