Please help identify the year/value of this Excelsior 922

[yc360]

:ch :ch :ch :ch Thank you so much for your clarification :ch .
:tup:

 

[debra]

...
The Artiste VI N is cut down to 53 sounding notes. The Artiste XI N has 56 sounding notes. Neither of them has the thumb sliders (for selecting one of LM, MM, M, LMMH) that the Artiste VI D has. They have 120 basses instead of the 127 of the Artiste VI D (but those are mostly for optical reasons). The Artiste VI D has a déclassement (cassotto-like sound) on the L reeds and is organized LMMH (4 reeds in treble), the Artiste VI N has most of one button row mellowed (WTF?), the Artiste XI N has a true cassotto for L and M reeds and LMMMH organization. The XI N also has 5 bass registers instead of the 3 of the VI N (and VI D).

Basically, the Artiste VI N is tonally inconsistent and is quite the step down from the Artiste VI D. The Artiste XI N is more consistent but is a 5-reed heavyweight. Its basically Excelsiors pitch at a successor of the Artiste VI D that makes some sort of sense and sort-of is an Artiste X D spinoff without the free bass. The treble side is pretty much the same as that of an Artiste X N.

Just to add to this: The Artiste XI N (and later S) is indeed a spinoff of the Artiste X N (and later S), more or less like the Morino V N (and S) are related to the Morino VI N (I have never seen a VI S though). The V N has no thumb sliders, the VI N does have them. Unlike the PA versions the CBA accordions have the same number of notes (56). The X not only has the free bass but also has the thumb sliders. I never liked these sliders and took them off but kept the internal mechanism and reused that to create 4 chin switches. Unlike the PA Morino VI N there is no master chin switch so the sliders are a bit different.

I have the Artiste X S and yes it is a heavyweight, but it is still a joy to play and listen to (but not to play for a very long time).

 

[yc360]

The slides are not useful to me either. A historical artifact. Morino player really need muscle and long left hand to make the most of it. :ch
I just love playing the accordion, especially the bigger one with the full rich sound. Holding the instrument close to my body and feel it singing from and with me is very personal. The only thing come close is the cello. But only accordion can be a band of its own. I never felt the same vibe with a keyboard or piano or string instrument. I don't particularly like the recorded sound of the accordion. But playing it myself is completely something else.

 

[Geronimo]

The slides are not useful to me either. A historical artifact. Morino player really need muscle and long left hand to make the most of it.

The sliders we were talking about are on the right side under the keyboard. That would be a really long left hand...

I dont particularly like the recorded sound of the accordion. But playing it myself is completely something else.

Accordion is annoyingly hard to record well. My current solution is Octava omnidirectional (!) small membrane condenser mics right next to the (hard) floor. The Octavas are comparatively neutral in sound, omnidirectional captures complex tremolo and expressive soft playing better than the other solutions, and the placement next to the floor gives you a boundary mic effect keeping reverb in check and giving reasonable separation.

If you dont play soft or tremolo, large membrane condensers like the Røde NT1A deliver more punch.

 

[yc360]

Do people actually use the slides? Not easy for thumb to reach and the arrangement is not intuitive either

 

[JerryPH]

Do people actually use the slides? Not easy for thumb to reach and the arrangement is not intuitive either

Youre talking about the left hand sliders?

When I was very active with the accordion, yes, I used them all the time, about 50% as much as the treble registers which says a lot. Matter of fact, you can almost see those sliders in my current avatar.

I kind of liked them, though on some pieces, they would stick in to my forearm, so I had to work around that, but this was fairly rare. It took very specific Fee Bass note variations to make me feel the switches.

 

[Geronimo]

Do people actually use the slides? Not easy for thumb to reach and the arrangement is not intuitive either

Not easy for thumb to reach? I beg to differ on a CBA.

Im probably somewhat preconditioned since my main instrument has all of its registration operable by thumb (left and right hand, though the right pinky is also useful), so having the most important registers on the Artiste VID thumb-accessible from any spot on the keyboard helped. Admittedly all of 4 registers falls quite short of what youll usually want to employ on an LMMH instrument. On my main instrument I have LMMM and 3 thumb levers (separately for L, M, MM reed sets). So the manner of employment is quite different (and things like alternating between LM and MM are painful). I do like using the sliders on the Artiste VID and am clumsy with the more conventional register controls on either side of the Artiste VID: they seem to be out of convenient reach far more often.

If it were entirely a matter of my own lack of practice, chin switches wouldnt be a thing. Not sure why people would find the thumb sliders on a CBA disruptive: I dont really have fingers there by accident.

 

[yc360]

must be a learned habit. Coming from piano, I found my fingers barely have time for the switches. The thumb slides are way too hard for me :lol:
:ch

 

[debra]

must be a learned habit. Coming from piano, I found my fingers barely have time for the switches. The thumb slides are way too hard for me :lol:
:ch

So far I have found just one or maybe two people who actually used the sliders. The accordion world has since moved on to chin switches. You can keep your fingers on the keyboard while operating chin switches. Once you get used to chin switches its hard to imagine you ever lived without them. Excelsior 922 (which this thread is about) will not have the sliders which could otherwise be converted into chin switches with some effort and diy skills, just like its likely sibling the Morino V.
I have seen many people who are very skilled at rapid register switching without sliders or chin switches. But it always still does take time. On a CBA you are more likely to be within reach of the register you want than on a PA because everything is more compact.

 

[Geronimo]

must be a learned habit. Coming from piano, I found my fingers barely have time for the switches. The thumb slides are way too hard for me :lol:
:ch

So far I have found just one or maybe two people who actually used the sliders.
[...]
I have seen many people who are very skilled at rapid register switching without sliders or chin switches. But it always still does take time. On a CBA you are more likely to be within reach of the register you want than on a PA because everything is more compact.

It is quite obvious that using sliders or other thumb-operated switches is a thing only when specializing on certain instruments. On the other hand, combination registers dont have a standard arrangement either, so the rapid register switching has to be practised separately for instruments anyway. Id speculate that it becomes more a part of the piece-related motor memory than the instrument related memory, making the notes of a piece transfer better from one instrument to another than the registrations. But as a not-really-good-with-registers guy, I would not really know.

 

[yc360]

To me the master push switch on the side of the keyboard is quite useful, which is rather regrettably not available on both the Morino XI N and this 922. Guess this is all part of the limitation of hunting in the second hand market. DYI to add chin switches is way beyond my skill level. The seller promised to have a video clip today for me. Cant wait to hear what the 922 sounds like. Last year libertybellows has a super Paulo looks just like this 922, same red color with all white buttons, lmmmh with cassottos and similar number of switches, plus a master palm. Only the sound is rather disappointing. I like my old 610 without the cassottos. It sounds clean and sweet without being light. But it just doesnt have the colorful and grounded sound of the Morino XI N. So hopefully the 922 is a worthy step up. The dimension measurements are given by the seller making it more in line with the Italian slimmer boxes than the protruding Morino XI N, which is very helpful to me. Cross my fingers. :ch {}

 

[debra]

To me the master push switch on the side of the keyboard is quite useful, which is rather regrettably not available on both the Morino XI N and this 922. ...

I always liked the master push switch on the side on accordions, but several of my friends hate it because they tend to press it accidentally, especially with larger PAs where you can hit the master switch with your right leg (when not holding the accordion properly). The Morino VI and the Gola had a chin master switch which some people also found a nuisance and had it removed... You can never please everyone.

 

[Geronimo]

For what its worth, the 62-note Morino Artiste VID feels more compact to me in play than a 49-note Excelsior I (also) want to sell. The Morino may be heavier I think (but I dont remember the Excelsior weight right now) and it should most certainly be thicker, with 6 reed blocks (the Excelsior makes do with 4).

The thickness puts the center of gravity further forward. Thats not really an issue for playing when sitting down as then a reasonable amount of weight is sitting on your left leg, but I would not want to play either instrument when standing up.

I mean, a large bandonion is most certainly thicker and yet more compact.

For whatever it may be worth, I find playing the Excelsior more work over extended periods of time.

Now later (Excelsior-built) Morino model series are heavier again, so your impression might fit better there. And I dont really know how my Excelsior compares to other Excelsior models like the 922, either.

 

[yc360]

Based on the measurements from the seller,922is slimmer than: XI N. The video I saw, the 922 sounds a lot like my XI N Morino, with the exception of a wetter tuned middle reed. But Morino have quite a few more buttons. Overall, the 922 does have a note colorful tone. So I am still undecided about it. This 922 sounds a lot different from the 610 but more closer to the Morino is a surprise to me... Also I am not a big fan of the flat keyboard. Much prefer the mushroom buttons on stepped keyboard, especially the one on my borsini K10, a joy to play. {}

 

[Geronimo]

Based on the measurements from the seller,922is slimmer than: XI N. The video I saw, the 922 sounds a lot like my XI N Morino, with the exception of a wetter tuned middle reed. But Morino have quite a few more buttons. Overall, the 922 does have a note colorful tone. So I am still undecided about it. This 922 sounds a lot different from the 610 but more closer to the Morino is a surprise to me... Also I am not a big fan of the flat keyboard. Much prefer the mushroom buttons on stepped keyboard, especially the one on my borsini K10, a joy to play. {}

Ive had both flat keyboard and mushroom keyboard Morino Artiste VID under my fingers, and they played rather similarly. The flat keyboard Excelsior, in contrast, feels quite different. Maybe its button size and curvature is different and it has less travel before the buttons go under. It shouldnt make a difference since you dont touch the area between buttons when playing. But somehow it still does. I cannot vouch for the Excelsior made Morinos (never had one in hand for either button type). Also, I never had opportunity to play an Excelsior with mushroom buttons, so I cannot really say which of the Morino/Excelsior model difference or the Hohner/Excelsior factory difference or the stepped/flat keyboard difference factors makes up most of the difference in the difference between my Morino/Hohner/stepped and Excelsior/Excelsior/flat instruments. Stepped/flat alone seems to play less of a role here than I initially thought.

 

[debra]

...
Ive had both flat keyboard and mushroom keyboard Morino Artiste VID under my fingers, and they played rather similarly. The flat keyboard Excelsior, in contrast, feels quite different. Maybe its button size and curvature is different and it has less travel before the buttons go under. ...

When the buttons go under it may indicate that the felt underneath the keyboard that is supposed to limit the key travel is worn out. You would hardly notice this on a stepped button keyboard but you do notice immediately on a flat one.
Im not really a fan of the flat keyboard, but I must say that it does play rather well, especially for glissando.

 

[yc360]

Less button travel, there you said it! From the video the 922 looks just like the Morino XI N, very shallow press, making quick repeat difficult for me. My skill level has much to improve for sure. But the borsini is day and night in comparison. But the video shows this 922 is in a much better condition than my XI N, so maybe a well kept XI N can be very different. Its a Morino after all. I do appreciate the lmmmh for its rich and colorful tone. It sounds a lot better than the super Paulo from Libertybellows also. Waiting for the seller to post the second video to decide. It never stops amaze me of these well made boxes! If not for the super high price tag of the bandoneons, I would love to try one of those as well. Its voice is divine! :b {}
And yes indeed, the flat keyboard does help sliding fingers more freely any way I like. But on the fantastic Borsini keyboard, the mushroom buttons are large and the gaps are small and the springs are just right, so it more than making up for it. But I really love the 922/XI N s lmmmh rich sound. Just blow me away :ch

 

[Geronimo]

Based on the measurements from the seller,922is slimmer than: XI N.

Looking at the picture of the Excelsior I posted, it actually appears incredibly bulky (partly the camera perspective). Opening the treble grill shows that it works with two rows of pallets well above the keyboard (good for sound consistency, bad for thickness) and using crooked levers. That explains why the keyboard has a few dead buttons (I hate those) as well as crooked levers since the active reeds occupy a longer range than the active buttons.

So lets see the actual measurements:

Hohner Morino VID: 48cmx37cmx24cm. Excelsior: 48cmx42cmx22cm

So yes: the Excelsior is not as thick, but the difference is small.

In either case, measuring keyboard width (which is barely outside the rectangular frame) but not keyboard depth (which does not make a difference for Hohner but the Excelsior keyboard tray dives a few cm below the general instrument bottom, curving a bit around the players right and thus requiring at least the same case thickness as the Hohner).

According to the bathroom scale I just used, the Excelsior is actually about 1-2kg heavier. Now it also is equipped with Midi and one mic, but that should not amount for that kind of difference. Both are LMMH in treble with a five-reed standard bass, but the Hohner has 62 sounding notes over the Excelsiors 49, a bass cassotto, cassotto-like sound on the L register (which also requires a bit of mechanism). Also the bass of the Morino sounds more open and lower than that of the Excelsior. I dont generally like the closed-box bass sounds (Weltmeister does it similarly) but I have to admit that it annoys me more as a player than as a listener: with a bit of distance, the result clearly improves.

So while I cannot say just what model Excelsior this is, it leaves me unimpressed compared to the old Morino. For servicing, the Morino may be a nightmare since it has mechanics everywhere. But for playing, I find the old Morino superior both in sound and handling. Newer instruments are supposed to have better mechanics, but the Morino manages without crooked levers, making for a rather direct touch while the Excelsiors crooked levers feel less defined in the extreme ranges.

The Morino Artiste XI N will be heavier and thicker, both due to having Excelsior build and five reeds (and will likely also have to work with crooked levers, and I think even the Artiste XD would have done so), so I dont know how it would compare.

 

[Geronimo]

...
Ive had both flat keyboard and mushroom keyboard Morino Artiste VID under my fingers, and they played rather similarly. The flat keyboard Excelsior, in contrast, feels quite different. Maybe its button size and curvature is different and it has less travel before the buttons go under. ...

When the buttons go under it may indicate that the felt underneath the keyboard that is supposed to limit the key travel is worn out. You would hardly notice this on a stepped button keyboard but you do notice immediately on a flat one.
Im not really a fan of the flat keyboard, but I must say that it does play rather well, especially for glissando.

Now having finally unpacked the Excelsior again in order to weigh and measure it, I have to say that I had been talking nonsense here: the buttons stay significantly above the plane which never comes close to the fingers.

This is different on a Hohner Amati IIIM (Id have for sale...) where the clackiness of some of the (flat keyboard) keys suggest that refitting keyboard felt may indeed be a good idea.

 

[debra]

...
Looking at the picture of the Excelsior I posted, it actually appears incredibly bulky (partly the camera perspective). Opening the treble grillexcelsior-treble.jpgshows that it works with two rows of pallets well above the keyboard (good for sound consistency, bad for thickness) and using crooked levers. That explains why the keyboard has a few dead buttons (I hate those) as well as crooked levers since the active reeds occupy a longer range than the active buttons.
...

I dont know about the Excelsior but the Hohner Artiste X S I have (and I assume the XI is the same) actually has non-standard narrow reed plates so that my 56 notes fit on two reed blocks of 28 notes each. The reed blocks on more standard accordions with up to 46 notes only have room for 23 notes on each reed block. The case of a Morino VI PA and of the Artiste X CBA has the same size. The PA has 45 notes, thus 22+23 on the reed blocks versus the 28+28 on the Artiste. That simply does not work with standard-size (tipo-a-mano) reed plates.
The Hohner has crooked levers but less so than a CBA with fewer notes and some dummy buttons. When all buttons play the ones at the edge require less crooked levers than when the playing buttons are more towards the center only.